00:00 Chris Grainger
Welcome to the Lion within us, a podcast, serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders they’re predestined to be. I’m your host, Chris Grainger. Let’s jump in. All right, guys. This week is the area of self that we’re going to be talking about. And today we’re going to be talking about living with heroic disgrace.

And remember the verse of the week, the verse of the week, Deuteronomy one 30 the Lord, your God who goes before you will himself bite on your back. Remember guys, you don’t have to do this alone. He will fight on your behalf to go back to that spiritual kickoff. If you need another kick in the pants and you’ll be ready to go to get going for your SP for this week.

Now for this week, I got Scott box. Now he is the founder of the ministry worship hero, and his mission is to change the way people understand and practice worship by practicing tools to pursue, pursue. Pursue Jesus and reflect Jesus as a habit, leading to hope to a lifestyle of heroic disgrace. He lives in central Oregon.

What his wife, carrion daughter Ainslee and his son Titus, or they share a home with a four pound dog that ironically has no teeth. So Scott, I got to know more about the dog. Here’s some point, man. So how are you doing.

01:13 Scott Box
Chris. I’m great, man. Yeah, that little rat dog. That’s my daughter’s dog. And my word, that thing is, uh, you know what, here’s what I learned.

I learned with little dogs, Chris, you ought to brush their teeth or their teeth fall out, man.

01:30 Chris Grainger
Well, we have a little Yorkie at our house and sometimes I wish his teeth would fall out. That’s another story. My wife probably just rolled her eyes when she’s listening to this episode, but man, I am so excited, brother.

This is a great conversation. I love your book and excited to talk about it. And, and, you know, maybe just, if you want to get us started, you know, what, what made you decide to open up and share about your mineral mental health journey? Yeah,

01:56 Scott Box
well, I, uh, I didn’t know that I wanted to write a story, but I, I knew as having been a, a music pastor in the church for years and years, I, I thought I’d figured some stuff out about worship that I wanted to share with the world.

And gosh, truss, I, I put some stuff together and then I sent it off to a publisher and they. We don’t care and it didn’t just stop with that, which was cool. The, the feedback was what we do care about. Scott is your story. So what would you tell your story? And then maybe then maybe we care. And that was, that was an eye-opener for me, because I recognized that.

I had a story to tell, but I didn’t know how to do it. And so this has really been the hardest season for me, occupationally in the sense that I I’ve never done anything this difficult to in writing, writing my own school, it was hard. And. I said, I set my mind to do it. I pivoted and I went, I went for it.

And the, the outcome is my story, heroic disgrace. I mean,

03:14 Chris Grainger
I absolutely love it. And I’m excited to tell more about worship because it sounds like music is a huge part of your life. And, you know, just off hand, man, just to get it out front, back in the day. I was a big corn guy. I didn’t see, I saw your cousin.

I saw, I saw him probably three times. Man. I used to be the guy who had the truck with the camper shell with all the stickers. I had the corn to stain the limp biscuit, all those stickers on the back of my truck. And, uh, so yeah, man, big time. And so when I saw him. The intro that, that, that grabbed me too.

And I’m sure we’ll get to that at some point, but yeah. Just wanted to throw that out there.

03:50 Scott Box
Yeah. No, well, you know what, since we’re there, I I’d be happy to start with this. Here’s what’s so amazing about Brian Brian’s intersection with my life is so I’m 45. Brian’s I think Brian’s 50 ma maybe he’s 51, but, uh, Brian and I, we, we knew each other.

Existed basically. Uh, but up until this last real 10, 15 years, we didn’t have much interaction. And, but here’s what happened when Brian, when Brian met Jesus, I started to pay attention because like so many of us, we were like, is this a thing? You know? And I, uh, I was really interested in is this yeah. Is, is Christ changing?

Brian is Brian submitting his life to Christ and boy, I mean, we, we all realized, yeah, this is, this is legit. And, uh, here’s the, here’s the way that this intersected bill I, here I am leading worship. If you will, in churches, Chris and I. I’m the worship leader and I’m looking at the way that Brian’s living his life.

And I, I was scratching my head. I did not understand what I was seeing. The type of worship that I was seeing was not the type of worship that I was leading. And, and so there was this disconnect of, okay, if worship is music in church on Sunday, and then bright is living this lifestyle that is this massive witness.

Uh, there’s some, there’s a disconnect between the music and the lifestyle component. And, and I, it opened my eyes to this thing that I had to share with the world that, that ultimately came down to Brian’s this rockstar and I’m this music leader or worship leader. And I just go to the point, and then I just say the rockstar, the rockstar led the worship leader.

06:06 Chris Grainger
It’s crazy, right? It is amazing. And I’d say, you know, one thing, you know, from a worship standpoint, in our, in our churches and the cool thing about it, I’ve seen him more and more. So you may can speak to this. You’re seeing a lot more of. You know, even hardcore rock and you’re in worship because I mean, we’re speaking to guys here and let’s face it.

A lot of guys, they come through the churches, you know, w uh, and I’m all for the hymns. I think there’s a ton of value in hymns, but you know what we’re losing, you know, sometimes it feels like we’re singing to, like, Jesus is our boyfriend, and that is not the type of music. No, you know what I’m saying? I mean, you go to a corn concert, like that’s amped up.

I mean, that’s probably the loudest concerts I’ve ever been to in my life. I mean, but, but there’s an energy there in those concerts. It’s probably not the right energy, but there is still, there’s an energy there.

06:55 Scott Box
Right? I mean, it

06:55 Chris Grainger
just, it just to see him, like, I’ll just remember vividly watching Brian on stage and the energy he has and the, and he poured everything out and now he’s doing that in and, you know, and for Jesus.

And we need that in worship because that’s going to bring more and more guys and get them connected because you come in there and just sing these songs that just, you know, Jesus is, is, you know, kissing me on my nose and pat me on my back. And then they sit there and have to listen to somebody talk for 30 minutes.

That’s not going to engage these guys. We got to go differently

07:26 Scott Box
and I’m guilty of it. Chris. I’m guilty of that. Um, and this is, this is part of the reason too, that I was, I became so committed to T. To try to help the local church, uh, not be so reliant on the monster. Uh, the, the, the song, the song creator, you know, the elevation or the, I mean,

07:54 Chris Grainger
even

07:55 Scott Box
thin, gosh, the Lord can speak through songs that even kind of technically stink.

And they came from the heart of the local church and, uh, That’s that’s a whole nother issue that we could get into, but that’s, that is that thing that if we could capture that, that heartbeat and, uh, but, but at the end of the day, I I’m just as guilty as any other worship leader, if you will, who is some boyfriend songs to God, it just doesn’t work.

08:25 Chris Grainger
Right. It doesn’t, it doesn’t work at all. So I mean, hats off to you. I mean, I mean, I, I think this topic is so. No one had wrote with disgrace. When you started working this through, you know, you really talked a lot about mental health and just kind of sticking through that, the church theme, you know, that’s not something that churches and Christians even talk about that much, man.

I mean, why do you, why do you think there’s a hesitancy there? They even had that mental health conversation.

08:51 Scott Box
Yeah. So I think that’s, that’s the real. That was the real thrust of the beginning of my story for us is this, there was this problem that I had, let’s get back to the church thing, but I’ll, I’ll explain, just listen.

There was this, there was this difficulty that I was having at the, really the beginning of my marriage with Kerianne and, um, it, it progressed, it got progressively worse too. And so I. Deal with a bipolar manic depressive. So, uh, for, for, for me, it, what I was dealing with were these massive highs and these ridiculous lows.

And then there was this crazy mixture of things like irritation that would, would cause me to, uh, I wanted to just crawl out of my skin and. Oh, I mean, lights were lights were too bright. Sounds were too loud touch. I had to get out of my clothes then just, and wish that I could hover over the carpet because I didn’t want my feet touching anything.

I mean, I w I’m not talking about a physical weirdness. I’m just talking about physiological reactions to what, what is going on. And ultimately we, we went and, uh, kind of fell into getting help with a counselor. We were looking to adopt a kid from Haiti at one time. And that was just part of the process.

Cause they w they wanted us to, you know, check the box. Okay. You’re you’re okay to have a kid come into your house. And yeah, Chris, the, the site, the psychologist ended up, you know, after a little while. Uh, cause Kerrianne and I realized, wow, this is kind of good to meet with colleges that this is actually healthy and we did it together.

It wasn’t something that we did separate and we were just, we, again, we stumbled into it. Uh, Libby is her name and the psychologist. And let me just say, you know, Scott, you know, Scott, there might be, might be something worth exploring here. Uh, and let’s, let’s go ahead and pursue understanding what’s happening with you, uh, mentally.

And, uh, and then it took a year before diagnosis. And then I will mention this, that diagnosis was an incredible gift. It was not a death sentence for me. Uh,

11:16 Chris Grainger
because you knew at that.

11:18 Scott Box
Well, I knew something the heck was very wrong with me. I, I needed, I needed help. My marriage was a wreck and a lot of that, and we can get to this too.

I realized I haven’t touched on the church component and mental health yet, but, but a lot of what I was struggling with too, and a lot of the shame that I was bringing into this and the, the anxiety had to do with self-medicating really with pornography, uh, It’s a humiliating thing to talk about. I mean, it’s face to face with another dude who has an audience with, you know, it’s humiliating, but I I’m willing to go there because I know how devastating it was to Mike, my sense of moral authority, you know, how could I, how could I be a worship pastor?

Right. Let alone, you know, a good husband. Filling my, my eyes and my mind would just all sorts of garbage. And so the self-medication component fits into that. And I guess I’ll just Slingshot to this and you can take this wherever you want, but, uh, I think that the next piece to this, Chris, that was so fascinating for me was on one hand, you’ve got self-medication on, on the other.

Actual medication. Like in my case, the psych psychiatric nurse practitioner came along, partnered with the psychologist and prescribed medication and I was like, Hmm. Yeah, no, no, that doesn’t, that doesn’t fit my. Sense of, of life, you know, I’m, I’m too big a hero. I’m too great. A man I’m too, whatever that.

And, uh, no, eventually my psychologist said, Scott, Scott, we know what we’re talking about. This will work. Trust us. It’s going to take time. But if you trust us, it’s going to be like a switch was flipped and you will get better. Uh, and. So I just D I call that in my story, Chris, I just call it my dedication, the medication I just got.

It’s a dedication to medication and I convinced myself. I do not, I know what life is like on that side, the non-medication side and the self-medication side. I want life on, on this side. Yeah. I’m still Scott box. I promise you I’m still the dude. So anyway, there you go. I feel like that maybe gives some, some context

13:55 Chris Grainger
to add your own.

I think it’s great context. And I’m so glad that you went there and, and, you know, just to kind of. When I, when I hear that, I go straight to it. In my mind, I went to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. I mean, that’s the, that’s the three things that say he’s going to throw at us.

Right? You’re proud of life is holding you back from saying that, you know, I don’t need that medication. Know, I got this and my manual ma you know, pop, you, pop your chest. You know, I just leaned in, I just, just got up, just, just pull my boots a little tighter, bootstrap it and go that’s how guys think. And that’s where we get in freaking trouble guys.

I mean, come on this face, it dangerous. It’s dangerous, man. But like the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh, those are tools that say uses a man. Scott. I mean, I was on a call recently with a guy in the lion’s den and I’m trying to help him. And he went straight to him and he’s struggling with pornography and this.

He was he read off some stats to me that blew my mind and the stats were. Actual pastors and the pastors. I mean, it’s, it’s a bigger problem than, than, than dislike. It’s the problem that nobody talks about.

14:58 Scott Box
Want to talk about it, right. And it’s embarrassing as heck. I mean, that’s. Yeah, because we’re, so we want to portray self-discipline and control.

So I’m with you. Yeah. Keep going. I didn’t mean to cut you off. Well, what I was

15:15 Chris Grainger
just going to say is the look he went to his church, right. And so he’s not a pastor. He’s just, he’s just a dude. He’s out here working it, but he went to his church for a support on, you know, Hey, I’m struggling with, with, with sex addiction, porn pornography.

These things are pulling at me in my life. Like, can you help me? He got no help, Scott. I mean, there was none. And, and so now he’s trying to figure out things he’s meeting with therapists and things like that, but I’m like, brother, you know, you, first of all, you’re a spiritual battle and you need to recognize who you’re battling here.

And I agree. Therapies is great. There’s actual medication that can help you. But brother, uh, the church has got to step up here, Scott.

15:57 Scott Box
Yeah, boy. You’re right. And, and here’s, here’s one of the things.

Okay. Yeah, let’s, let’s take this from two angles. I think that the, I want to attack this just from kind of, at least at this point, put a finalize my thought on the pornography stuff and just, and simply say that here’s, here’s the way that it manifested in my life. Um, that it, when, when I. Again, good point.

Isn’t this weird. I still feel a sense of shame and humility, just talking about it. But when I felt sexually slighted by my wife, I felt justified in going, screw it. Fuck. Yeah. In order to whatever it was going on in my head, I was just like, fine. You. You’re too tired tonight, you know that. Okay. Well there’s other ways.

Right? And so that, to me, that’s an ugly part of me. I hate that part of me and, uh, that, that was something, especially as a young man that I did not give to Jesus, I did not allow, I did not submit that part of. To Christ to control. I just, I held that tight because, well, and here’s the, here’s the crazy thing for me.

And I think most guys, unless our consciousness have been seared, we do feel guilty for it. We, we, we, the next day stinks and the next week stinks and the net, you know, whatever, it’s, it’s. So, yeah, I mean, we have this sense of control and yes, I’ll hold this as my own. And then it eats us up. Don’t have control and that’s that give and take of it, but that’s where it came for for me, Chris.

And that’s how I just. And ultimately what that did for me, just to put an exclamation point on it. It took me out from a moral authority standpoint. I’ve said that before, but I truly, this is what has destroyed so many men’s especially men in the church because we keep it so secret. We don’t even joke about it, but the marketplace jokes about it.

They’ll just, they’ll just joke about it. Uh, It’s almost better than keeping it secret. Right. So, um, because of what it does to the soul, and no, I’m not saying it is better. I just it’s it’s, there’s just that sense of, at least it’s not secret and it’s destructive in the way that the devil can get in and just destroy our moral authority.

So what have men done? We’ve opted out of the church. We’ve opted out of leadership. We’ve we’ve just been like, ah, son Sunday. Just don’t do that because it might, we have no good rationale as to why to tell our sons not to, not to do, you know, it’s right. So I see, I see where this has gone in my life and I want, I really do want to call us all, all us men into this heroic journey, this adventure, uh, and I call it a heroic disgrace because it’s graceful in so many ways.

But here’s what’s so cool is at the end of the day, Jesus flips that disgrace upside down and talk more about that.

19:37 Chris Grainger
He absolutely does. And I mean, this is another reason guys, why I’m so big every week I talk about Scott, I call it our lines, Dan, that’s our group of men that we, that we’re building our community because guys, we need community, but we also need to be real with each other.

And if we’re struggling with something, you know, just suppressing it and, and, and hoping it goes away, that’s not the answer. Like you got to bring it to your brothers, but then again, Iron sharpens iron. And you’re a can only do that if you’re sharp enough to sharpen someone else. Like, so I mean that, that’s it, you know, cause you know, the owner doesn’t sharpen aluminum.

That’s not the way it works. I mean, it has to be, you have to be iron and be able to handle and be able to do. Uh, vulnerable enough to have these conversations and transparent enough, and then also be real enough. What’s your brothers when you hear this to help him through it. Uh, and, and a lot of this is just prayer.

I mean, a lot of this really comes down to scripture and prayer and getting your life right in how you view women. And, and I mean, there’s so many things I can go on and on and on about that, but I’m telling you, man, you can’t do it alone. And I’m so I love how you call it heroic. You know, but the role of part is what we need to hang on to, right?

20:46 Scott Box
Yeah. So here, gosh, Chris, you’re so dead on. I so appreciate that because I know a lot of us dudes can, can identify with this, this dream that we have of being heroic in some capacity know to come through, to save the day. And here’s the miracle of what my bipolar disorder did for me is that.

It caused me to realize that I, I, I couldn’t be the hero that I thought I was going to be, that I was designed to be, it forced me to recognize how desperate I was not just for more acute. What that I was desperately, I was designed to be desperate for Jesus. This is, this is, this is, this is what I realized.

And I realized it by looking at Jesus’s life, Jesus, his life, he was desperate for his fault. Yeah, so it wasn’t necessarily like Jesus had it all figured out. I mean, he did, he was God, but he was God in a body and he needed his father. He needed that interaction and Jesus modeled worship in a way and hear wisdom in a way that just totally upside turned it upside down.

He needed his father. He was desperate for his father. He was in a, in a way he was designed to be desperate for God. The father in the same. We are our medication, if you will, in this regard, is that we were desperate. We were designed to be desperate for Christ. And I think we, we just, we don’t think of heroism that way.

We think that it’s on us to do it. We’re self-made self-reliant dudes and the answer is no right.

22:40 Chris Grainger
That’s right. The answer is no, that’s a what? Scott, we’re going to take a quick break because I want to come back and I want to talk about something that’s. Yeah, I think guys, it hits us at the core of wow.

We, you know, we, we are honing back on that heroic disgrace, so let’s, let’s, we’ll take a break. We’ll be right back.

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All right guys, we’re back. So Scott, Scott boxes here with us, we’re, we’re walking through his book, a Royal Oak disgrace. He’s given us a lot of things to think about right now so far, but Scott, I want to go to one thing that I see guys struggling with. When, when I saw this in your book, it just really jumped out and it has to do with fear.

My man, and you know, I read your January 3rd, 1999 about that cab ride. And I could S I could just feel it. I could just feel it. I could feel where you were. And there, there was a. And I’m gonna pull, I’m gonna pull it out right here for you listeners again, go check the show, the links in the show notes, get you a copy of this book right now, but it says I am married to a woman who exceeds my dreams.

Can I come through for her? Can I be the man? I expect myself to be, can I be the man she expects me to be, and bro, I remember saying that to myself SU well, when we got married, we were on. To, to our honeymoon. And I was thinking a lot of these same thoughts. I’m sure. Like God’s word it’s like, yeah. Fear, cripples rice.

I just, I just want to give you an open platform, man. Just go wherever, wherever the spirit leads you here. Wow.

25:04 Scott Box
So it’s not all connected with sex either. It’s like there’s, there’s some real you’re you’re you’re in big boy pants now type of thing. It’s not just like, oh, well I, you know, it’s not all just connected with that.

It’s, uh, it’s very much connected with real world. Uh, I just, I, you know, it all depends on, uh, it doesn’t all depend. It, there is a connection to the, in my case, I was, I stood up in front of hundreds of people. Uh, we had a big wedding and I just made this giant commitment in front of people. This is the biggest thing that I’ve done.

And dear God, what did I just do? You know, kind of thing. Yeah, well, and, and here was the other thing is we left the country. So here we are in Cabo, Mexico. And you know, I was young. I hadn’t seen in this case there there’s guys, you know, at the airport holding their guns. And that, that wasn’t something. The U S that we’re used to seeing.

I mean, you’ll see cops hold with their pistols on and every now and then you’ll see a bigger gun, but not just people on every corner or a military. Anyway, that, that just threw me. And we, we hop in this cab, right. If you’ve ever been to Cabo, you have to kind of walk this gauntlet of salespeople as you’re getting out to the, um, you know, just out.

Yeah. I mean this, the senses are bombarded with new smells and do everything. I just kind of deer in the headlights. I w we get in this cab and when you leave Cabo and it might still be this way, I don’t know, but you kind of have to go out of town and then it gets dark. All you leave the lights and then you’re just on your way out to where all the resorts are and everything.

And we just got this thing as a gift from a family member. And so, I didn’t know, I, we, we get out and I’m thinking this guy’s going to kill. You know, he’s taken us out to his buddies, he’s going to hurt my wife and I’m looking for stuff to stab the guy with. I, you know what I mean? It was, it was, it was as close to a panic attack as I had ever experienced.

And until I did experience a panic attack later on, but, uh, Cabo was the, the launching point that then led me into, uh, Uh, and, and it’s probably very much connected to some of my mental illness stuff, the, the bipolar stuff, but, uh, I had another experience that was much more public and was much more humiliating, ultimately, uh, from a fear, uh, chaos standpoint in the head that then, uh, really crushed my identity.

That’s the, that’s the frustrating thing beyond frustrating thing, Chris with fear is how. Uh, it, it kind of like the, like the pornography stuff with your more moral authority, fear does mess with your identity, um, because you can’t come through you’re you’re you’re by fear. Um, anyway, leave me on, I don’t want to take us too long on that, but that, that is a giant.

28:30 Chris Grainger
Well, I’m curious now you, I mean, if you don’t mind sharing you, you opened up the bat, the panic attack, and you also opened up about you. There was another big event. Is there anything you’d like to share there? Because I’m always curious. I talk about anxiety. A lot of times I deal with anxiety. I have panic attacks.

That’s hit me in the past, you know, and for me, it’s seasons, man. It’s. So I’m curious to share, because this may be something that resonates with guys out here. Like what does a panic attack actually look like for you? And then, you know, just there may be some value there.

29:00 Scott Box
Yeah. So, so for me in all of this.

Okay. So I w I’ll get to that story. Okay. W w with, with all of this, for me, there’s this sense of that I’ve struggled with for years. All of the students will get walked into the grind the, the just day in and day out. And I know that my fear to some degree was really connected to this question of God.

There’s gotta be more to life than this. If, if there’s not more to life than this, then that, that triggered fear for me in, in a way that anyhow, I, I, I don’t know if that’ll connect with somebody. But, but when I was driving home from selling insurance one day and I’m just stuck in traffic on interstate five that runs north south along the west coast, I’m just like, there’s got to be more to life than this and that, that sense of claustrophobia that just comes in.

That is a thing. And I don’t know exactly how it all works psychologically, but I know it’s a thing. And there was this moment when I was working at George Fox university, I was, I had a cool job too. I had the opportunity to work with students, uh, in the alumni office of all things, the alumni or the graduated people.

Th the idea was that we would work to develop affinity with the students before they graduated. So that they’d be, you know, better alumni. It was super cool. I got to work with them and help develop leaders and put on cool events. Anyway. So we, at one point though, we did sit down in front of the board, the alumni board, you have 30 people.

And I had the opportunity. I was given the opportunity to, to introduce a couple of students, a boy and a girl. And I could feel that claustrophobia start. I felt it as the meeting was going on, that irritation stuff. I CA I, I still remember. Stupid smell of the poppy seed salad dressing that was on the table in front of my face and the sweat.

And I stand up. I couldn’t remember their names. I I’ve worked with these kids all here and I, and so I you’re in the headlights. I look at these kids and I’m like, I don’t even know if I said you’ve got to take it yourself. I just kind of sat down sweet. Okay. Cool. For me, it was humiliating. I remember looking across the table at a friend of mine and he only whispered he whispered, are you okay?

And I, anyway, anyhow, I left that meeting and I thought, my boss, you know, I crumbled, I crumbled in front of my boss. She was one of the. The employers I’ve ever had and best. And she came in, I’m laying on the floor in the student union building. I’ve graduated. I, you know, I’m, I’m an alumni. I’m, I’m working there.

My boss comes in, she looks at me and she goes, it’s okay, go home. And. And, and, and rest, she didn’t know what really had happened, but I remember going home, Chris that afternoon and I didn’t feel like I deserved my wife. I didn’t feel like I deserve anything good in my life. The devil had gotten into my head and wrecked my identity because of the chaos that the fear had caused and the panic attack.

Uh, and, and I, I want to say this before we, we move on, there was this constant, there was this. The identity component to this was so big. I dealt with this for years. Uh, where, when, like you say seasonally, it w it would happen. And especially in the spring, like right after the time change for something. My things would just get this little hiccup in life and I would have these panic attacks and I would just blank.

I would just derail and I would try to keep going rather than just stop and go, Hey, could you repeat your question or, you know, and just take a deep breath. These things got got to so, so bad. And this has been part of the fear that I’ve had even in interacting with you, you know, and other interviews that I’ve had once I put myself out there with this book is like, dear God, what if I, what if I, what?

And I had an experience just a couple of weeks ago on a national, uh, broadcast with a very famous person where I had that. And then I’ve been given the tools, but you know, I, I, to stop ask the question, tell, tell what happened. Okay. And then anyway, just some of these tools have been able, been able to work

34:03 Chris Grainger
through it.

That’s great. Cause I mean the what ifs and the self-doubt, I mean, all that stuff is what we get the guys we deal with. Right. I mean, for me, that’s the same way man. You, after, when you go through it, I, you know, I’ve got to do. Where I didn’t even want my wife to know, you know, I, I felt this as almost embarrassment, right.

There was like, I don’t want her to know because then I’ll feel it. She may think I’m weaker. You know, I’m not, I’m not the man that she needs me to be. I got, we got daughters in the house, like, what would they think of their dad? They knew their dad was struggling, you know, with, with anxiety. So he, like, you suppress it, but then like I’m with you, I’ve learned tools over the years.

And now I openly I’ll just tell her, I’ll just wake her up, you know, Hey, I’m dealing with something right now. Do you mind? Can we pray together? And then CA and then whatever it is, you know, and she’s there, you know, I don’t hide it anymore. Right. And I think that’s the message I’m hearing for you too. You got to lean into this, accept it, and then find the tools to work through it,

35:04 Scott Box
Chris.

Yeah. Let me, let me ask you real quick, just cause I, I know sharing both of our experiences is telephone. What happens to you physiologically like, like what’s happening in your body or

35:19 Chris Grainger
for me I’m I’m with you? Like sometimes the sweat. Sometimes I actually start sweating a lot of times. It’s it’s this fight or flight, right? Yeah. It just, it, it kicks in, like I gotta get up out the bed right now. And I don’t know, like literally bro, my wife has woke up in the middle of the night and you’re like, I’m walking up the street.

Like I’m just chilling. I mean, for me, for me it was just like, I got to get out of the house. I don’t know why, but I got to get out, just walk up the street. So, uh, but, but that’s usually, it’s something, you know, not a heart attack type feeling, but you definitely your heart races. Uh, it impacts me, but I’ll also remind myself in those moments and the closer, closer I’d get the guy in the Mo and here’s the thing.

The closer you align the God, the harder these attacks are going to be when they do happen, because Satan is pissed off. He doesn’t like the fact that we’re sitting here talking about it. Right. So, I mean, you know, I can expect maybe tonight he was gonna attack me, but who knows we’re ready for that, but it’s just, that’s, that’s the things that impacted me.

And then I have to just really work through, you know, I have a Christian counselor that’s helped me get through with some, some mental tools to try to work through it, put it in a day. It comes down. Now you gotta have the whole. You got to have that scripture ready? You gotta be ready to fight. I mean, we we’re we’re we’re we had what the armor of God.

Right. And I can tell you one thing. Well, when I get to heaven, I don’t want my armor to look shiny and new. I want it to look like I’d met through a fricking battle. You know what I’m saying? And it, and it’s going to yeah,

36:46 Scott Box
yeah, yeah. That’s so, ah, that’s so good. I so. I totally the fight or flight. I actually have a subsection in my book called fight or flight, and I’ve come to realize too that there’s, there’s actually a, there’s actually a third option and it’s, it’s the fetal position, man.

Right? Stick your thumb in and start sung.

Obviously that’s that’s but there is there’s that like, okay, let’s wait, let’s go. Or there is just bail out, but there, there is that sense of just I’m giving up. That’s uh, that’s rough. I, I got ya. Here’s here’s one thing I wanted to throw this out because when it, when, when I think of a lifestyle of heroic disgrace, um, what, what.

What I’m talking about, uh, is really taking my pain. Um, how do I want to say this? My PA my pain became my moment of purpose, if you will. So, so bipolar disorder has given me really the permission to, uh, Yeah to, to, to go out and share my story without shame without guilt. Uh, I’ve actually harnessed my pain as my purpose.

And here’s, here’s the, I’ll throw this out. So I was at the gym, uh, two days ago and I ran into a friend who’s dealing with liver failure and he’s, he’s got, oh man. It’s so. It’s really hard to look at him. Cause his, his, his, his eyes are like bright yellow. It’s it’s disconcerting it’s uh, and yet here’s, here’s a stud you know, he’s a, he loves God, but he is fighting.

He’s fighting for his life. He, he and I are talking. There were some circumstances in it where he was just like, uh, he was kind of passive and I, I want to be sensitive to how I’m sharing this, but, but ultimately the way that, that, that conversation went down, which was so powerful was that he, he had gone passive in his pain, in his weakness and what I’ve been able to, to.

Experienced in my story and no, I’m not dying of liver failure, but I recognize that all of us are dying in some capacity and we will, so dog gone it let’s take our pain, harness it for a purpose of kingdom purpose and tell that stinking story, because that must become our witness. If we don’t do that, we, we we’ve, we failed.

We failed at that. Gives us permission to become a heroic witness to the world. And I got to look at my friend and be like, this is your time. This is your time. This is your moment. And so this is why we can talk about things like porn. We can talk about things like fear, uh, liver failure, bipolar disorder, and go, this is our time.

Right? Right.

40:15 Chris Grainger
Well, Scott, there’s two words that come to mind. Let’s take a break. And now we’ll come back and I’m going to share them to where I want the guys to hear these two words that I think, you know, where I’m going with this we’ll be right back guys.

Satan will do everything possible to destroy you. Are you prepared to start trained today with the leadership for Christian man Bible study, the focus of this Bible study will be to help you and your line stand, grow in the areas of health by. Well career finances and self husbands and dads. We know it can be intimidating.

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Our guys we’re back here with Scott and I tell you what I left you hanging. I know you guys don’t okay. Chris, what are the two words? What are the two words to Scott? Two words in your book and I, and I know, you know where I’m going, takes everything. So speak to that. My friend.

41:30 Scott Box
Oh boy. Um, yeah, so there’s, there’s something in my journey.

The world create Chris, the world creates rules for us that, uh, for some reason we just accept, we just don’t like, yeah, cool. Let’s we’ll play by those rules. We don’t have to, we can, we can change the rules. I mean, Christ changed the rules and that’s. That’s kind of where I feel. I feel like as it, as it pertains to taking everything, we must give everything this.

I need to choose a lifestyle that will address my ma the depth, the brokenness of my mind, my body, my spirit, and that takes everything to change that lifestyle. I, it. I don’t know any other way to say it other than I was at a moment, it can become too late to change. Chris. There’s just, this is a universal, a universal principle.

It can become too late. And if we don’t give everything, then, then it can’t. Then I was 300. And I got in the car that, that afternoon that I had been, that you’re referring to in my story where, where my, I had vocal cord surgery, and I had a therapist, my speech therapist of all things talk about humbling.

I had to go to a speech therapy and she she’s like, bring your running shoes. And I I’m like, huh? We’re we’re, we’re running, I’m running these Hills in, in Portland, Oregon, uh, realizing that I have to get my body in shape in order to fix my vocal chords. And I got in the car just this one day after she and I had this banter back and forth.

And I’m just like, she hates my guts because I’m just, I was just being a turd face and, and she, she wrote on this. Little sticky note takes everything and she’s not even a Christian. She wasn’t a believer. I, as far as I know, uh, but she was, uh, she was a beast. She, she hit me with truth between the eyes and then she kicked my butt running Hills.

This lady became a really good friend and taught me the holy spirit spoke through this, this woman to remind me what it took to be a heroic witness for the world was going to take everything that I have. And am I perfect? No. Am I successful? Yes. Because I’m consistent. I consistently worked to give everything to Christ and let him peel open and dive into the depths of what’s next, because he always reveals, he always reveals something new and that’s, that’s awesome.

45:02 Chris Grainger
That is awesome. That is awesome. So she tells you to show up with your shoes. Let’s go take everything. You’re 300 pounds. Yeah. I mean that just, I had to take a lot of perseverance as personally. We have, we share some of stories cause I was 3 30, 10 years ago. So I mean, I get that, you know, that perseverance, but you also tell guys as part of the health, part of the line with that.

You gotta, you gotta take everybody. Cause you never know what God’s going to call you to do. Like guys, you know, you you’re, you’re leading worship and that, that takes physical energy to be able to do that. Right. And that had impacted where you were. So, I mean, hats off to you. I mean, what was the hardest part of that journey?

Was it just getting started or, or was it showing up

45:44 Scott Box
every day? No, it’s every day to this day. So part of my dedication to medication well has included. And this is part of also the taking of. It’s included a, uh, a very short list of things that I must do every day. And the cool thing is I can do them in any order at any time, but I must do them and it’s rush my freaking teeth floss, you know, uh, Uh, a boatload of water.

And, uh, and I work out every day. I work out for a minimum of 30 minutes, cardio, and then lately, this last many months, I’m on a rowing machine for 50 minutes and I’m not some. Yeah, I still got my love handles, man. I got a belt. Yeah. But I’m, you know, I’m right around two 20 to two 30. And I know that once I’m over two 30 and I’m leading music and I start, you know, I’ve got this bald head, I start sweating.

I know I’ve hit that threshold. I drop again.

46:52 Chris Grainger
Right. And I mean, you speak to habits. I mean, as, as Christian man, we got to have good daily habits. Yeah, I’m with you too. Uh, usually it’s 30 to 60, sometimes 90 minutes a day of, of workouts for me. That’s a, that’s a non-negotiable I drink a minimum of a gallon of water a day.

You know, you just got, you got a pound of water, gas. I mean, it’s really important, you know, you may think, well, how do you, you know, all you must do is pee and I don’t have the answer yet. Yeah. That’s all I do is be, but you know, it’s okay. Uh, you, you do get, you get, you just get used to it. You know, I made meetings now and when I get up the lead people know Chris drinks, a gallon of water a day.

That’s

47:29 Scott Box
part of Chris that’s part of changing the rules. That’s part of giving yourself permission to change the rules. That again was the miracle for me of, of the bipolar disorder, is that it helped me recognize the desperation component that I was designed for. This we’re not designed to do to fall and play.

And play by other people’s rules. This is silly. This is absolutely ludicrous that we play by those rules. Christ. Did he changed all of that and anyhow,

48:02 Chris Grainger
you’re right. Morel. You’re you are, you’re all over. I’m curious on the book itself. Know what’s the one thing you hope people gain from it?

48:10 Scott Box
Well, I, I would say, and this is even in the, in the book, but I would say.

What I’ve experienced in my life. I’m not healed. I’m going to have bipolar disorder my whole life, uh, which in a lot of ways I think is a gift because it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of way how pain, pain, pain really forces us to remember that we’re dependent on Christ. Uh, without that pain, I wouldn’t need Jesus without my bipolar disorder.

And I mean, and I’m being honest because I know, I know myself. I, if I, if I didn’t have this form, I, I would be like, screw it. I’ve got this covered. And, and so I would say that if there’s anything that I could encourage all of us to know, and to, to take away is that God makes. What he doesn’t heal. God makes healthy what he doesn’t heal health.

Another way to put that is health is always an option. Even when healing is an absurd impossibility. That’s that is really the lifestyle of heroic disgrace in a nuts nutshell. It’s this life of health that, and it’s, it’s a disgraceful thing in so many ways and it feels so. To be a servant and not be served, you know, uh, to, to die to yourself and not have people dying for you.

I mean, that’s one of the crazy things with heroism. It’s your wisdom. First for somebody to be heroic in history, it was always somebody had to lose and that’s where Jesus flipped that completely upside down. And he’s the biggest loser. And yet he is the great hero. How ironic is that? What a paradox this for?

I’m talking about when I say her role of disgrace and that we can, that God makes healthy or he doesn’t heal.

50:25 Chris Grainger
I love it. I love it. Well, Scott, I got one more question for you. I like to always try to, you know, on a little something fun. What, what’s something for you? A fun fact that people may not know about Scott box,

50:37 Scott Box
man.

Oh man. Something about belly button land or something like that. It could

50:45 Chris Grainger
just be anything from man. Maybe something I experienced or just something quirky about you, you know, M and M’s in the middle of the night on top of, you know, stuff. I don’t know what, what’s just something fun.

50:55 Scott Box
Golly. I wish you prepped me for this, Chris.

I should have. Oh man. Yeah, I can’t, I can’t stick my hand under my armpit anymore. And do that. That’s cute. I, I don’t know. I, uh, Amanda, I, so you want me to not take this serious for a moment? Let’s see.

51:16 Chris Grainger
Yeah, just, just, just, I mean, we’ve been hammering now the serious topics for almost an hour, so let’s just listen in on a little something light.

51:23 Scott Box
Well, I, uh, shoot, dude. I don’t know. What’s, what’s yours. What’s your quirky thing? Yours. Isn’t m&ms in the middle of the night. Is it?

51:36 Chris Grainger
Well, I, I, you know, well, not anymore. Cause you know, m&ms they want they’ll they went all political. So now I had to, you know, I had to find a new, new candy now, man. So, I mean, I guess for, for me, my, my thing is like, I got this stupid little game tune, black.

And I’m at a ridiculous level on it, like level 6,000 or something. It’s crazy. So it’s like, You know, as a, as a 40 year old man did hat to like play a video game, like, like it’s really embarrassing, but at the same time, I’m really good at it. So anyway,

52:10 Scott Box
so I I’ll hop on, I’ll hop on that bandwagon and say video gaming has been something that I have enjoyed, uh, this season I have taken it off.

So I accidentally pulled my X-Box off of my son’s dresser. He was born with it. Dropped. It blew up the graphics card like that. And so I’ve been hesitant to just go get myself a new X-Box and, but no, you know what? Okay, so here’s a here. This is, I don’t even know where this will go, but. I had, I took a girl on a date in college once and up to this, up to this hillside.

And it was all about making out back then. So that was, it was just the thing. And there were, there were a bunch of, there were a bunch of houses that were being built and this, uh, I got, I borrowed this, this girls’ roommates Jeep, and I got the Jeep stuck in the mud before the date. And. I had to go around knocking on doors of whatever houses were built and ask some dude to help me pull the truck out or the Jeep out of the mud.

And, oh, it was so embarrassing to dude and all he did was flip it into four-wheel drive and he got it out. I’m like, that’s how you do it. Okay. And sure. What was that? My friend just asked me the other day. He was like, so, so did you go back? And I’m like, sure. I went right back to the same place. And so this guy I’ve been to in the neighborhood, he was like, oh, that kid’s back.

So I did get a kid. So that’s what matters. Right? So there you go. That’s my Eminem’s in the middle of the night story. And dear Lord, I’m sorry. That was pathetic. It’s all

54:04 Chris Grainger
good. Um, so Scott, we’re going to sync up everything in the show notes, but if you just want to tell our listeners, like, where do they, where can they go get a copy of your book, connect with you?

Things like that.

54:14 Scott Box
You bet. Hey Chris, thanks for having me first off. This is, it’s been great to talk with ya and absolutely. Yeah, I, you can find me primarily on, uh, Facebook worship hero, just search for that. Uh, YouTube I, um, on heroic. And we’re going to throw, you can find me, uh, and then, uh, yeah, uh, social, social media stuff, Instagram and Twitter.

Uh, if you want the book heroic disgrace.com.

54:44 Chris Grainger
Okay. And we’ll make sure we’ll sync all that up in the show notes for it for you listeners out there. Go check it out and get the book it’s phenomenal. Uh, definitely highly recommend. It’s gotta be in your library. Gasses. It’s been a pleasure, been a blessing.

Thank you so much for everything you shared today on the line within us brother.

54:58 Scott Box
You bet. Thank you, Chris.

55:03 Chris Grainger
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All right, guys, that was a powerful conversation with Scott box. I’m gonna tell you what that bad guy he’s phenomenal out. Just what a great story, what a great way he’s trying to help people with that hero. Discord, disgrace message guys. It’s important. This is so important. As you go walk into your journey, you’re going to have battles.

You know, Satan’s going to throw those dark dark. You have to be prepared. You have to be ready and he have to accept also that she can’t do it all by yourself. Okay, guys, we need support. So gas and one thing I want you to think about this week, do you believe there is always hope? Do you believe it?

Because you need to understand faith hope and love. Hope is in there. God has given us hope and our hope can only be found and our C and our savior Jesus Christ. So guys, I pray that this, this message today, I knew it was heavy and we cover a lot of stuff. I mean, a lot of stuff. When we were talking porn, we’re talking addictions, we’re talking mental health, bipolar fear, guys.

These are the conversations we need to have. And I pray that it serves you well, that this hits you emotionally, let us know, let us know how we can serve you better. You know what? There may be a brother out there right now who needs to hear this message share. Send it to them guys, keeping this in your pocket does no good as it.

You need to be just lean in, be vulnerable. Hey, this may pick you up, you know, go what? Go to the line with us. Check out the Bible study. They’re staying in a Bible study. We talk about that can help you specifically in some of these areas, particularly around fear and leaning in and trying to, to, to take, uh, control where you can.

And ultimately how to surrender to God and let him lead your life, join the lions. Then you can get, again, the line within.us, give us a rating, write a review. Those things really do make an impact guys. So again, thank you. Thank you for sharing. There’s so many podcasts that you can listen to, but you listen to the line with Dennis.

I can’t say what that means. Know, when we look and we see the people that we’re impacting and numbers come in and all that stuff, it’s all, God, there’s nothing that Chris is doing. I can promise you that. First of all, I’m not smart enough, but God, he’s got this. There is something special about the line with Dennis and God is blessing it.

And I think each and every one of you for taking the time now go out, unleash the lion within.