00:00 Chris Grainger
Welcome to the line within us, a podcast, serving Christian Inn, who are hunger to be the leaders they’re predestined to be. I’m your host, Chris Grainger. Let’s jump in. All right guys. It’s your neat episode of the week. I’m so excited for this one. So, but before we get going too far, you know how we’re gonna start?

We’re gonna start scripture. Okay. So this week, the scripture is Colossians 3 23, whatever you. Do your work heartily as for the Lord and not for people guys, powerful scripture right there. If you missed a spiritual kickoff, go back, listen to that spiritual kickoff. I really unpack that scripture verse by verse and well, section by section is only one verse and gave you some insight to think about how to do the work, the way that God wants us to do our work.

Guys, you could be, maybe you’re headed to your job right now, and you’re listening to this, or maybe you’re on the job. This is the episode for you because we’re gonna be talking about entrepreneurship, pastors mission. Monetization we’re gonna cover it all. We’re gonna really cover it all. And to, to help me with this conversation, I brought in two guys, Jon Sanders and Les Hughes, and they are co-founders of entree pastors.

Yes. You heard that right? Entree pastors. So entrepreneurs, pastors, they smash it together and they have a wonderful podcast called the entree pastor’s podcast. I’ve actually been on that show. John and Les have come together to empower pastors, to maximize their God given talents, to take better care of your families and better pastors in the process.

And we talk about for, for the line within us, not just pastors, but you guys leaders, lions that are out leading our businesses that are out there working in our community that are serving. How can we take the skills that God has blessed us with and lean into? And actually grow and, and, and, and thrive. So John Les, they do a wonderful job.

I think you guys are gonna get a lot outta this conversation. They unpacked a ton. It was a, it was just an absolute blessing to work with them. So I’m not gonna hold you back any longer. Here you go. My conversation with John Les around entree pastors.

So John Ellis, welcome to the line within us. How you guys doing.

02:18 Les Hughes
Thank you’re doing good. It’s all good, man.

02:21 Chris Grainger
All good. Well, I’m super excited. You guys are doing phenomenal things at entree pastors and, and I’ve kind of got our lines out there. Excited about this conversation with, on our spiritual kickoff.

I, I teased them a little bit about some two awesome guys that are gonna be sharing with us. So, first of all, man, I just love to name entree pastors. I, I need to hear about this, this story and this journey. So I’m not sure who wants to go John you or less. Somebody kind of give us a, a breakdown of how you guys got to where you’re at.

02:48 Jon Sanders
Yeah. So the, the simple overview of it is that Les and I both are pastors. We’ve been serving in the pastoral space for decades, you know, with combined experience and, uh, have a heart for pastors. We love the church. Love the Lord, love serving pastors, but we are sick and tired of the narrative of what we call the starving pastor.

We are kind of over this idea. In order to serve God in pastoral ministry means that you also are going to just suffer financially and barely scrape. Paycheck to paycheck being overworked and underpaid. We think there’s a healthier model. That’s not only healthier for pastors, but also for the church. We think there’s a better way of doing it.

And we think that some form of entrepreneurialism is a big part of that key. Getting pastors. Out into the marketplace. In addition to serving, you know, within the, the context of the local church, getting them out in the marketplace, where they really have no ceiling on their earning potential, they can serve people in a little bit different context and thrive financially.

So that’s what we did with entree pastors. We kind of took the word entrepreneur and, uh, jammed it up against the word pastor and created a platform called Andre pastors.

04:02 Chris Grainger
I love it. So how long has that been, been in, in place

04:05 Les Hughes
almost a year. We’re coming right up on a year since, uh, our partnership began and you know, it’s funny, even what John said a few moments ago is he was starting that explanation.

We know that that causes some people to wince a bit mm-hmm , I’m not so certain about that. And. Like it, yeah, we, we enjoy the conversation and we’re glad that it ruffles a few feathers because it sort of underscores the need for our message, you know,

04:34 Chris Grainger
mm-hmm cause there, I mean, there is this UN underwritten, like myth out there that if you do mission work or you do pastoral work.

That you know, you need to be poor and it doesn’t pay well. And I love how you guys are just hitting that head on and saying, no, this is, this is not the way it’s gotta be.

04:50 Les Hughes
Yeah. And it even goes beyond the pastoral world there in christened. There, there seems to be this, this mindset. That you know, scarcity is godliness and abundance is not, and that’s just not the case.

We can all cite examples of people in, in scripture, old and new Testament that were people of means that God used. And there are, there are people who lived in scarcity that God used as well. It’s a, uh, money is a tool. It makes a terrible God, but it’s a very good tool to use for, especially for his, uh, kingdom purposes.

Absolutely.

05:27 Chris Grainger
You know, when I was thinking about, you know, talking with you guys, pastors, aren’t the only ones that are stuck. I mean, they’re, I sought at so many guys, you know, week in, week out and they’re struggling, you know, and they’re, they’re struggling to break free and they’re trying to work towards that financial freedom that you guys are talking about and working with purpose.

So what’s, what’s, what’s some encouragement. What do you say to the, to the guys that there are stuck? Maybe they are pastors. Maybe they’re not, they’re just stuck. What do they need to start doing to get working down that.

05:53 Jon Sanders
Well, I, I think regardless of where you are starting from, you need to really address the thinking that goes on, because whether we realize it or not, our thinking has gotten us to where we are right now.

Like our current reality is a byproduct of our previous thoughts. So, and I’m, I don’t say that to be critical, but you have thought your way into exactly where you are right now. So if we’re gonna get out of that, we gotta start thinking differently. So that’s where we really start with, uh, our people and our community that come through our, what we call our roadmap to financial freedom, a pastor’s roadmap to financial freedom.

We start with mindset because unless we start thinking differently, We’re not gonna get the results that you wanna get. So if you wanna get unstuck, we really need to examine what are the, what are the thought process that got us to where we are right now? And how can we go about addressing those and accepting some new thoughts that will take us to a better place.

And Chris,

06:53 Les Hughes
the, the principles that John is, uh, talking about, you know, our tribe by and large are people with a ministry background or ministry experience of some sort. So it might be pastors, it might be missionaries. It may be people that have come from. Off of the mission field or worked in a different faith based organization.

But we also know that these they are principles. So there, there are, there are certain nuances that are, are more a specific to our tribe and our space, but the principles are much, much broader than that. Just yesterday, someone reached out to me, that’s a CFO. And, um, not in a faith based organization at all, but this person wanted to have access to these principles because of the universality of them.

They just are tried and true principles, but we’ve kind of nuanced them to be in the, uh, people with the not only ministry background, but the. Skill sets and gifts often that accompany people in some sort of ministry as a communicator content creator, somebody that’s relational can, can deal with conflict and, and manage people.

And, you know, those sorts of things. Mm-hmm

08:08 Chris Grainger
so it sounds like there’s several different avenues and arenas. Those guys can go down depending on their, their giving skill and gift.

08:16 Jon Sanders
Absolutely like one, one of the things we encourage PA, we don’t have a formula. You know, we don’t have a cut and, and pace formula to say, everyone hears your path to, to financial freedom.

We have principles, but we, uh, a big part of it is the way God has shaped you and wired you uniquely is going to play a large, uh, effect on what pathway you choose moving forward. So for some of. People they’re gonna be down what we call the information based pathway, where they’re using their intellectual knowledge and their mind to create products and resources and, and putting their message out into the world for others.

They’re gonna be more what we call the eCommerce path, where they’re selling online. Uh, and, and then others, it’s a, a service based. Industry, you know, where they they’re U doing something, providing a tangible service, building something with their hands, or, you know, providing a service tangibly that way.

We’re getting ready to add another course, uh, to that those, our pathway module, which is gonna be dealing with real estate. We have a few other surprises coming for our community in the near future, down that road as well. But yeah, the path is different for each of us, cuz we’re all uniquely different. So the way we help our audience.

Really helping them take an assessment of how God has wired them. And then from that, let’s choose a path that fits you well, and get you moving forward down that path. Absolutely.

09:39 Chris Grainger
You know, I was, I was meeting with the guy the other day, uh, John Les and, and he’s a missionary. He does, does a lot of mission work and struggling financially.

And we were just having a conversation, looking at his financial, trying to help him figure out where to go. And he just, he, he was from that mindset stand. He didn’t feel like he had value to offer others. And then I started talking to him about the mission work he does. So he was doing a lot of, of, of building houses and, you know, hands on type work.

And I said, you know, I’m not gonna mention his name. I was like, brother, that is a valuable skill in of itself. And, and, and there are churches that are struggling right now to, to bring their men’s groups together to, and they would, they. Gladly pays someone like you, who knows how to do this in the mission field to teach them and to show them.

I said, you could put together a course for a class. And so I started walking through, you know what, and then his eyes finally started open, but he had this fog and, and I guess Satan just had it there of, you know, I, I don’t, I can’t do anything. I don’t have any, anything to of value. And it sounds. This is what you guys hit right out the gate from that thinking and trying to hit that, you know, that mindset

10:44 Jon Sanders
directly.

Absolutely. It’s one of the common misconceptions or maybe obstacles that are a lot of pastors deal with too, of man, I went to seminary or Bible college. I’ve been a pastor for all these years. That’s all I know how to do. And it’s this mindset of, I don’t have anything of value to offer out in the marketplace, beyond the four walls of my church, and nothing could be farther from the truth.

You know, it’s one of the mindsets that we help. Recognize that look, let’s take an assessment of all the different skill sets you utilize on a daily basis in pastoral ministry, and then help you see how that is valuable and sought after, and even very well rewarded out in the marketplace and, and show you where you can go use that.

And

11:26 Les Hughes
Chris, when, when you have conversations like you did with that person, that’s coming off of the mission field. I’m gonna make an assumption here, but if it’s not true in this person’s case, it is. And a lot of the times is when somebody is transitioning out of a ministry, whether it be local church, maybe that local church, maybe the full time pastorate, but they still are a pastor or, uh, or a minister at heart.

Somebody coming in off the mission field, there are reasons for that transition. And sometimes they’re not always positive. And what, the reason that somebody can’t. Those gifts they bring or, or the value that they can bring to the marketplace or to other people is because they’ve just sort of been banged up a little bit, you know, and beat up some and all they need really are some small wins under their belt, or to be reminded that they’re still the same person.

That went to the mission field that planted that church that wrote that book, that earned that degree, that married their spouse. Who’s awesome. That had their, uh, amazing kids that they’ve been the father of. So a lot of times it’s just a matter of, again, it’s, it’s a matter of our thinking to have the right mindset, not be deceived by listing the lies or allow.

Something that’s perceived as a failure to define a person’s life. A failure is an, even if it’s a failure, I don’t even like that word because we can learn from those things and they can, they can serve as a launching pad to something else. But even if we perceive something as a failure, a failure is an event and not a person, but when you’ve been beat up a little bit, it’s sometimes hard to see that that’s one reason.

John. And I wanted to start a community of people who can, who can spur one another on. And even kinda loan loan, confidence to one another when they need it.

13:20 Chris Grainger
Cause it’s so it’s, it’s missing right now. And I was talking the other day. I was teaching Sunday school and one thing we were talk, we were talking about spiritual gifts, but this came up when you were talking less.

It was around, you know, understanding what our spiritual gifts are. You know, what do you have passions for? Where are you skilled at? But the third component, the third leg of that stool is, is, is what are you getting affirmation or confirmation from others. And as men Christian men in particular, we need to do a better job of encouraging our brothers out there.

And when we see them doing a good job, we see they have a skill in something. Just double down on that. Let send a text message, send a word, let ’em, let ’em know that you see value in what they’re doing, because that may just be the nudge that they need to actually lean into that a little bit more and start taking that and just start monetizing and growing their income, but just, just, we have so much power in our tones as Christian men.

I feel like too many times we just sit on it because we feel like we give a Compli. You know that it may be misconstrued or, or, you know, or may it takes us down or something. I just feel like we just need to be definitely leaning into more confirmation affirmations of

14:22 Jon Sanders
others. I agree. I, I believe God speaks through that in a big way that a lot of times God reveals, uh, his will and, and some of the clues to how we’ve been shaped by those compliments of other people, where they see things in us that we maybe don’t see in ourself.

And, and they call that. It’s, it’s kind of one of the things we’re doing with our community, especially with our tribe with pastors, Chris, like you talk about Christian men, let’s go to a, to an even more lonely group pastors, you know, that generally do not have a strong community around them, even though they’re leading a, a local church, many pastors.

Kind of lonely and isolated in ministry to begin with, let alone then to, to have that pastor have a desire to do better financially, to maybe be able to provide a little more for their family. There’s just not a, a natural community built into the church where that pastor can be encouraged and equipped and celebrated for the stuff that’s happening.

In many cases, there’s almost like a, you know, I don’t shame might not be the right word, but. Feeling of, I need to keep this quiet. I can’t let people know that I’m doing as well as I am out in the marketplace. I, my church would not celebrate if they knew, you know, how well my business was going. And so that’s one of the things we wanna provide with our community.

And we do see that we see pastors coming in where you can just kind of tell they’re confidence. Isn’t really super high. They don’t feel like this is okay to talk about this stuff. And as they really become celebrated, And affirmed in what they’re doing. You just see that confidence rise, you see them stepping out and doing some things that just a short time ago.

They never would’ve thought possible for their life. We love seeing that transformation take place in their lives.

16:12 Chris Grainger
Oh, I, I bet there’s a ton of fulfillment in that, so, Hey, we’re take a quick break. We’ll be, it will be right back. Guys.

Is your daily routine setting you up for success or failure? Each day is an opportunity to improve and it starts with solid habits. We created a guide that outlines nine powerful habits that will strengthen the physical, mental, and spiritual areas of your life. To get your free guide, check out the link of show notes or hop over to the line within.us/habits.

That’s the line within.us/habits and start creating the habits you need to be the leader, your predestined to be.

So I am curious, John Elli. So you, you talked about you, you’re helping them with their mindset, and then you gotta start at some point, you gotta act, I know this is something you guys you lean towards. So when you’re working with guys and you’re trying to get them to, to, to start moving forward, how do they know when they should act?

17:12 Jon Sanders
Well, I’m, I’m a, my, my model in life is ready, fire aim. So I’m the guy that usually jumps quick, you know, in scripture, one of my heroes. Peter. Uh, I identify with him. He, he was quick to speak a lot of times, put his foot in his mouth, you know, he, but he’s the guy that got out of the boat when, when Jesus invited him, like he was the one and the other 11 sat safely in the boat.

And, you know, we always look at Peter’s failure cuz he sank and took his eyes off Christ. But. No one ever really pauses it go. Yeah. But he walked on water brief though. It was, yeah. Well the other guy sat safely in the boat. Peter was the guy who got out of the boat and took a step toward Jesus in this adventurous thing.

And so I, I don’t have the exact answer for every listener on when they need to move, but it’s probably sooner than they feel comfortable. Uh, I, I believe that countless opportunities are waiting for us on the other side of action. But it requires us to move and it’s, it’s not until we take that first step that the next one becomes clear much of the time.

I, I have rarely had God a show up in my life and, and lay out. 25 steps of how we’re gonna go from here to where he wants me. It’s usually an invitation to take the first step and it feels uncomfortable. And I have a long list of reasons why I’m not the right guy for that job for this season. And he just continues to invite.

Are you willing to follow me? Are you willing to step out? And it’s 25 steps later. I can look back over my shoulder and go, wow, this has been an incredible journey. God, thank you. But he didn’t show it all to me at the. So I, I hope that’s helpful. It’s take, take action, man, move and God will, God will guide you.

He’ll direct you. If, if you know, so often we’re afraid of taking a misstep, just start moving. God will, God will ensure that you’re walking in the ways that he wants you to move. If you’re listening to him a

19:05 Les Hughes
hundred percent and there’s always a next step. That’s true, whether we’re talking about matters of discipleship and where we are, nobody’s a hundred percent perfect.

We’ll, we’ll graduate from this world one of these days and, and we’ll be, but until then, there’s always a next step, no matter where we are on that path. And you know, you’re a North Carolina guy, my guess is you’ve seen a barn or two as you drive through the countryside. So in our neck of the woods, we do as well.

And if you look out the back of somebody’s house, that’s got a barn in the back. There may be. 75 to a hundred yards and you can at nighttime, maybe you can just see the silhouette of the barn lit up by the Moonlight. And you know, there’s a path between the house and the barn, but you can’t see every step on that path.

So you might take up back in the day that might have taken a lantern. You could take a flashlight and you can see a little bit of the path ahead of you, but not the whole path, but you don’t need to see the whole path. You don’t need to see the step right before you get to the barn. You need to see the step right in front of you.

And I think spiritually. That’s kinda like that’s what this walk is. And, but it, but it’s, but you do have a, you know, where you’re going, right? So you see, you see the barn out there and you see where you are and you know, that means you’re not gonna go this way. And I’m, I’m looking way off to my left cuz the barn’s not that way, the barn’s this way.

And so I think it helps. People in ministry in particular, if they’re not careful can, can live sort of on a passive schedule because when the day starts, you don’t have to look around for much to do. There’s gonna be a need. Somebody’s gonna call. Somebody’s gonna hate pastor gonna, you got a few minutes of your time.

That few minutes is usually whole lot more than that somebody will call. And so, and so’s in the hospital, there’s just ministry that needs to happen. Right. But that’s a poor, in my opinion, that’s a poor stewardship. Of your day and of your life. There will be some adjustments that need to happen because you can’t predict what those people’s needs are.

But before that happens, you can sit down the night before or the Sunday night before the week, and really, uh, think about what your goals are for that week or for the next day. And then what habits are. Unless something happens and you don’t foresee what habits are likely to help you accomplish those goals.

Because sometimes we focus on the goal when really we should be focusing on the habit because it doesn’t matter. HOWY the goal is if you’re not doing the habits that are gonna probably lead to the achievement of those results, you’re not gonna get the results. And that that’s universal. That goes for whatever the goal is, whether it’s financial.

Relational, you know, whatever it is. So I would say there there’s a, there’s a book. Uh, you, you might have read the book atomic habits. If somebody wants to drill down a little bit more and peel back the layers of that principle, that’s an excellent resource for somebody that just needs a little more direction of how to be strategic in reaching those goals.

22:04 Chris Grainger
I love it. I love. And how about along with atomic habits? I was just curious to get your take on. Establishing the right boundaries so that we understand if we’re, if we’re cha, if we’re chasing this goal, that we need to put some boundaries in place, because as you mentioned, life’s gonna just throw us curve balls and know some stuff.

We do have to respond to some stuff we don’t, but oftentimes we respond because we, we wanna feel important. We wanna feel like that. We, you know, like, like we’re accessible and sometimes that can. Distraction from where we’re trying to ultimately achieve. So does boundaries play into the, to, to

22:39 Les Hughes
the case here, man, he’s speaking our language right now.

John talk to him

22:42 Jon Sanders
percent as I, as I heard Les talking earlier and this applies to more than just pastors, but he’s right. Like it’s very easy for a pastor to passively. Let. Life happened to them by letting everyone else control their schedule. And, and we all can fall into this trap. So the way around it is exactly what you said, Chris it’s boundaries.

It is me setting the boundaries for my life. It’s me living my life on purpose with intention. Not that I can’t ever be sidetracked. Jesus came on a very clear mission in. And nothing derailed him from that. Although we do see times where he did accept interruptions to his day, cuz they weren’t really interruptions at the end of the day, they were part of his mission of why he was here.

But we can do that in our life where we take control of our schedule. It’s one of the things we encourage pastors to do without apology. You tell the world what your schedule is gonna be. You set the boundaries. If, if you need to be out in the marketplace from this time to this time with your business, that’s what you do.

And, and you fit the ministry. The church part around that without apology, cuz you’re living your life on purpose. Following the voice of king Jesus. All of the voices in the church, that would be more than happy to dictate your schedule for you. And so that’s huge man setting those boundaries. My mind goes to, uh, you know, ne may now the context was a little different.

They weren’t just trying to distract them. I think they were trying to kill ’em if I remember right. But still they’re they’re, they’re calling him away from his work and he says, man, I can’t come down. I’m I’m doing a great work. And that’s what boundaries are, where we set some things in our schedule and say, I can’t attend to this emergency of yours or this desire of yours right now.

I’m building something here. I’m building a life and I’m doing a, I’m building a great work. So, you know, I’ll get to you when I have.

24:30 Les Hughes
And some of that, Chris, it comes from a good place most of the time, right? It’s we wanna help people. We wanna be available, we wanna serve. And we certainly don’t wanna let people down, especially when they, they tie maybe our reactions to them, to whether the church is giving or serving or not.

That’s, that’s a different kind of a different subject, but that’s the perception sometimes. And so in an attempt to soften that a lot of times people will feel like they’ve gotta. Lots of reasons or, or lots of excuses or, or even good reasons why they can’t be available or aren’t available or else they’ll cancel maybe the best.

Actually in order to, uh, and the main thing in order to respond to what seems to be, uh, let’s just say another person’s urgency. It doesn’t mean it’s actual urgency, but it is to the other person. And so, but I, what I have found Chris, for the most part, and again, this is for most people. Is that if we respond with something like here’s a, here’s a, a secret, a hint for, for many folks that, that have this issue of being a people pleaser, the response should be something like, you know, what I would love to be available then I’m just not, and I’m, I’ve com I’m committed to that time.

It’s to something that I need to keep. Is there another time that we could talk or we can meet. 99% of the time there will be, that person will be understanding. And the temptation is to say, because I have a date night with my wife because I’m attending a ball game with my. Kid, because I’m what fill in the blank.

Well, that whatever that reason is, it’s not gonna be a good reason probably in the other person’s mind. That’s why it’s not healthy to go into all of that. It doesn’t matter. The thing to say is there’s a commitment that I need to keep at that time. Let’s find another time. And then they’ll fill in the blank normally with a real good reason.

And it may not be the actual reason, but that doesn’t matter. I’m, I’m committed to that kind. And I, and I need to keep that commitment period. And then if people aren’t understanding about that, then chances are there’s you, you’re never gonna do enough probably to please them just to be blunt. I’m

26:54 Chris Grainger
curious cuz you both of you guys got me thinking here, this is not part of my, uh, original idea where we’re going, but let’s just go with it.

Cuz I think the Spirit’s leading. You work with pastors. You know, I work with a lot of leaders and both, you know, both are in charge of, you know, ultimately leading people and bringing great messages. And sometimes I’m curious from your standpoint, when it can be hard to let go of some things and to, to release control, because all of a sudden, if I, if I let this person do this, Maybe they don’t call me next time.

And, and they’re, I’ve lost a little bit of, of power if you will. And there’s always power struggles in churches, like, but there’s power struggles in business. I get it. So, you know, how do you help guys to understand that, you know, that ultimately could be holding us back from moving forward? Because we felt like we had to have this sense of control over everything versus looking at the resources we have available as leaders, as pastors, as, as, as leaders in our, in our business.

And use that and know that it’s not diminishing our value. It’s actually elevating us because we’re empowering others. So that how I’m just, I’d just love to get y’all’s take

28:04 Jon Sanders
on, on. Well to whatever degree a leader feels the need to have their hand in everything or to, to not give up control of things to, to that degree, that leader is going to be limited in their impact and in their ability to get things done, because they will be the bottleneck for whatever organization they’re leading.

That is not a sign of strength. It’s a sign of immaturity. It’s a sign of, uh, growth that needs to happen in that. Leader’s. Part of a, a growing leader. Part of the maturing process of a leader is learning to delegate and elevate other people, you know, to where we get a lot more accomplished together. And I hand off responsibility and not just.

Not just randomly, like I equip by the way, for pastors, that is their job. According to Ephesians chapter four, their job is not to do all the work of the ministry. Their job is to equip. So it’s not just randomly not caring. If something’s getting done, it’s developing people around you to make sure those tasks are getting done.

That’s a sign of strong leader. When you can, you know, I found that over the years in my ministry, that the more I grew as a leader, the more I developed, the less I did in terms of my job description, my job description got much more narrowly defined. You know, before in the early days when I did everything, when we were just planting a church and I, my, I was over every department over every ministry, you know, it was all me.

Well, that’s, that’s a, maybe an okay place to start. It is not an okay place to stay. And so I don’t care what organization you’re leading or what level of leadership you’re at as leaders. Our goal needs to be, to develop people. And delegate and elevate them to places of leadership and get more accomplished through them and together than just having my hands in everything.

29:58 Chris Grainger
Absolutely. Les, did you, did you have anything on that before we

30:01 Les Hughes
move on? No, it’s just a matter, really a, a maturing and growing, and also following the model. That Jesus lived and that’s not cliche. It it’s just the way it is, you know, Chris, that he could have done ministry way and in every way, every aspect of it better than Peter James and John, et cetera.

But he was wise enough also to know that for again, it’s about the long term goals of the kingdom that he wasn’t gonna be around in this world forever. That even though they weren’t gonna do it, like he did it, they needed to learn along the way, instead of just having him do it for them. Um, I heard a story once of a, uh, of, of a mom who had a child who was born with no arms and a friend of hers was over at their house.

They were in the little boy’s room while he was trying to put on a pull over. He was struggling and straining and kind of worked up a sweat, trying to get that shirt on. And the visiting mom said to the boy’s mother, why don’t you help him? And she said, I am helping him. And there’s a struggle that needs to take place as we learn.

And as we grow, and that’s part of the reason that it’s wised and biblical to equip.

31:34 Chris Grainger
That is great counsel right there, guys. Thank you so much. Hey guys, we’ll take a quick break. We’ll be right back.

You win, jump in a boxing ring and expect to win without training. Right? So why do you think you can win to battle? Get Satan without putting in the work for the Christian man? It starts with knowing scripture and your heart. To help you out and get started with your training. We created a free guide of 10 scriptures.

You need to fight like a lion, go grab this free resource, and I’m gonna come alongside of you in a series of personal and engaging messages, designed to challenge and help you grow. So get equipped today with scripture, that will help you fight the battle you are in. Visit the line within.us to get started today.

That’s the line within.us to unlock this free guide. You need to fight like a.

So guys, I wanna transition a little bit, you know, we talked earlier about, you know, the mindset. Now we talked on acting and something that, that I know you guys said that pastors have struggled with it, but I’ve also seen this, you know, the guys that I’ve worked with struggle with this too, that just the idea of thriving.

And being thinking that we, we can’t thrive out there. So when somebody, and you’re trying to counsel others on the, you know, the idea of look, you can have a great life and God, you know, you can thrive, you know, what are you telling them? What, what are you trying to encourage them to, to get past that barrier that they have mentally.

33:04 Jon Sanders
I think for a lot of us in the Christian community, uh, we have been turned off by maybe an extreme that some would call the health and wealth prosperity gospel. Um, you know, where we’ve, we’ve heard some of that. Maybe some scripture taken outta context and we’ve. And we’ve really taken a hard step away from that.

So when we hear people talking about prosperity and abundance, uh, we, we quickly get a little squeamish and go, oh, I don’t want to go to that extreme. And I get that. I, I would be in that camp as well. Like I I’d see some things on that side of the ditch. I don’t, I don’t fully subscribe to. However, I would say for every Christian that’s on that extreme, there’s probably about 10 on the other side of the ditch of this poverty scarcity gospel, where like Les said earlier, we’ve somehow equated poverty with righteousness and being broke with being holy.

And nothing could be further from the truth. It was Jesus himself. Who said that he has come, that we may have life and to have it more abundantly, those are his words. He’s not squeamish about abundance. We serve a God who owns the earth and everything in it. He is not a broke poverty stricken God. He is a rich God.

And he richly provides us with all things for our enjoyment. So. The whole thing of struggling and having this mindset of, we just have to barely scrape by, I don’t know where as a church we adopted that or, you know, made that some symbol of our righteousness, but I’m done with it. Like I’m, I’m rejecting it.

I’m over it. God’s not upset with me having, applying myself in the world, serving people well and being rewarded financially. I’m not about some get rich, quick thing or taking advantage of people or easy money, but I am about serving people and accepting the rewards that come as a result and then believing God for even more of that.

So I just, it’s a mindset issue. It’s not a, I mean, we are, we are surrounded by riches in this world. And God is God is abundant. He’s not opposed to us having some of that. Um, it’s, it’s so much this thinking that goes on in between our two ears that keeps us limited from experiencing a lot of goodness in our life.

35:19 Les Hughes
Yeah. And we get the fact that it makes us makes a lot of people squeamish us too. It makes us squirm when we see the, uh, The past the article on the pastor who has the private jet and the mansion, but can we just speak reality? Come on, man. I mean, the, the, uh, being able to pay for your kids college tuition, or take taking your family on a well deserved or fun vacation where they’re getting closer.

That’s a, that’s a long way from a mansion and a jet Chris, a, a long way. Right? Let me, right. Uh, in the last few days, My wife and I have had our kids. All right. One of our kids and their spouse and a couple of our grandkids, um, in north America, they live in a different part of the world. And for lots of reasons, some won’t get into where that is and what they do.

You can read between the lines a little bit there. Okay. So, but they, they Don. They just don’t live in the same world as we do most of the time. And their kids are being brought up in an environment where they don’t, they don’t have, uh, they don’t have accessible to them. What we do, you know, here in north America.

So make a long story short. We, and, and they live very much, uh, week to week. Month to month. And there’s not a lot of extra you, you follow me. We were just, but they’re, they’re at a point they it’s healthy for them to be here. To receive what they’re receiving for a short amount of time here in north America, in the United States.

So we were able my wife and I, the last few days to, to take our grandson to a huge theme park that just. Overloaded his senses with, with a world that, that he can’t even imagine. We, we got closer to him. We had the most fun, and then we were able to take the entire family out and bless them in a way to just where they didn’t have to worry about it.

Now we haven’t always been in a place that we could do that we could do it fairly easily. Now. I just don’t even, I, I don’t know that I have the words to express what that feels like as a dad and as a granddad, to be able to do that, there was a time where that would’ve really caused us to. To to, we couldn’t have done it probably.

I mean, we just, we just couldn’t have done that, but to be able to do it now, because there, because we’ve stepped off into the world, this entree pastor world, um, man, it’s, it’s an awesome thing. And there is not one thing wrong with that. And there’s not one reason to feel guilty about being able to do that.

We were being generous to somebody else that really deserved it.

38:02 Chris Grainger
Amen. To. I am curious. Now, you, you probably got some guys thinking out here now of, okay. I wanna start doing something I wanna start leaning in and, and, and building something new. So maybe speak to the reality of what success is and you know, how long it takes and, um, maybe earning pass or, or, or things that you do, uh, from a side hustle stand point to turn that into a full time gig.

So when, when, when guys you’re dealing with pastors directly and they want to do so. Maybe paint a little bit of more of the store of the picture, of what that looks like from, from

38:35 Jon Sanders
reality. Well, I’ll give you a very simple answer and then, then maybe expand on it a little. But the simple answer is if, if you wanna be paid.

Money for serving people, then find a problem and solve it. That’s really what business is. Business is solving problems for other people and then being rewarded financially for providing that service. So, I mean, you, you can go all kinds of directions with that. As I said earlier, we don’t have a specific formula that says everyone needs to do this one job or this one spec take this one specific path.

I would just challenge your listeners to lean into, you know, what are their skill sets? What are they good at? What are they passionate about? What do they love? Um, who are, who are some types of people that they love to serve a as we kind of take that, that full assessment from, that begins to emerge, maybe a path moving forward of, you know, Hey, here’s something I can do.

I’ll, I’ll give you just one quick example, personally, that is as real and timely in my own life right now. So here about two weeks ago, I launched out a little LLC where I’m kind of in that space of doing small home repair, handyman type stuff, just a little side hustle to create some extra income and kind of model for our community.

Just how possible this is. So I’m doing it for really two purposes, uh, but make no mistake about it. The first one is I want a little more income for my family. Man I live in, uh, I live in the Sioux falls area of, of South Dakota. I just live a little bit north of Sioux falls and a rural community. Um, Sioux falls is a pretty large town and it’s growing.

So there’s a, there’s a healthy economy around it. But Chris, I put out one little post in this app called the next door app saying, you know, I’m doing these types of small, odd jobs. I, I named the business Dakota, small jobs. My phone has not stopped ringing Chris. Like I have, you know, in just a short period of time made a few thousand dollars just on, you know, off times by stopping in doing little projects around people’s house.

I’m gonna build this thing out to be more than just me. I’m already from the beginning, looking at how do I scale this thing and build a team around. And really make it something, you know, profitable and, and long lasting, but I’m having fun right now in the little startup season of this. Um, and so that’s just one simple example, but there’s, there’s so many ways you can get out in the marketplace and solve problems for people and begin to build something entrepre that’s built around your skill set and your gifts.

Absolutely.

41:09 Chris Grainger
Now the last kind of the last question here on this one. What, what, what advice do you guys have around being in line with our wives? When we wanna do something like this? Cause I, I, I, I, we talk about this one line within us, a lot, making sure that, you know, we’re that we have that alignment with our wife that we’re, that we’re doing that, that we treat the covenant of marriage the way it is.

It’s not a contract, it’s a covenant. So when, when, when somebody’s wanting to have a, a, a start forging a new path, if you will, what’s the best way to get alignment with our.

41:42 Les Hughes
You know, it’s a really good question. And I would say probably a great subject for a, a different, you know, podcast when there’s more time, but the short version would be make sure that you daily build trust by, by thoughtfulness, by being in one another’s worlds.

It’s like everything else when you you’ve made enough deposits, you know, it’s the analogy of making deposits into that account along the way. So that for whatever reason, that there’s a small withdrawal, which is basically trust that needs to be taken there’s something in there, you know, and you’re not, you’re not drawing from a bank account that that’s already overdrawn.

So I would say have that kind of relationship first, um, whether you do or not, there, there still are some ways to make sure you’re on the same page. One is to make sure that whatever you’re doing fits into the kind of the life philosophy and the core values of what the family are already. It’s kinda like making a change in a church.

Right. And you wanna get the, your, your people on board. You can’t throw something out that appears to be random or off. So make sure that, that whatever that thing is, it’s a part of, Hey, this is gonna help us accomplish our goals as a, as a family, you know, and make sure that that, that you’ve done, that you’ve built up that trust before the then, and then, you know, here’s the thing it’s amazing.

I, I would say to, to the guys, especially man figure out a way to get a small win, you know, It’s amazing. Even when a spouse doesn’t completely understand all the ins and outs of the, of the venture or the business or, or whatever it is, a small win, a small paycheck, you know, uh, something to kinda move the needle.

It’s like, okay, this, this is not crazy. And that’ll go a long way to build that trust. I’ll, I’ll kick it to John. Cause I know he is got a lot more.

43:44 Jon Sanders
Well, no, that’s all good. I, I just ditto everything less is saying. And would maybe just add to that, that it’s attention to be managed, not a problem to be solved.

I don’t know that you’re ever gonna solve the problem of, you know, husband, wife, communication, especially around issues like money and, and business and entrepreneurialism, because what’s not uncommon at all in marriage is for you to be married to someone who’s a polar opposite than. So when it comes to being an entrepreneur, it’s not an uncommon story to be married to someone who has a much lower tolerance for risk, who would much rather prefer safety and security, or I’m gonna say perceived safety and security.

Um, again, maybe it’s potential that you’ve got a, a equal entrepreneurial husband and wife and they, they jump off cliffs together regularly, but that’s usually not the case. And so it’s attention to be manage. With everything Les said, um, there will come times probably though in that where, where one is gonna have to trust the other.

And look, you need to give me a little leeway to move and make some, some decisions, but that’s where that trust comes in. And also what Les is saying about the winning, you know, for years I look back, like there was a season in my life where I made a lot of promises in terms. The possibility of what could be when this happens.

Well, if you failed to deliver on those enough times, your spouse will quickly start to doubt your new vision and dream for the future. So there came a time for me, where it was time to produce. It was time to stop talking about what could be and start actually producing. And I’m grateful. I can look back now with, with a much better winning track record under my belt of having produced and, and gone from just talking about it, to actually doing.

So, yeah, good stuff from less there. This

45:29 Chris Grainger
is great. Great advice there, guys. We’re gonna take our last break and we’ll jump back to the final part of, of the show

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So guys, I have learned a ton from you today. I know our listeners have too. Now we wrap up the line within us. Every episode we do, what’s called feeding time. So it’s a quick, quick fire round. You guys wanna play? We we’ll jump

46:36 Jon Sanders
right in. Let’s go. Let’s feed the lion.

46:38 Chris Grainger
What’s your favorite thing about God

46:41 Jon Sanders
faithfulness.

He is faithful.

46:44 Chris Grainger
Faithfulness. Love it. Love it. All right. So for less, I’m gonna hit you with this. The next question here. What’s your least favorite thing about Satan?

46:52 Les Hughes
he’s a liar. That’s easy. He is a liar.

46:58 Chris Grainger
What are you, what are you currently struggling with right now?

47:01 Jon Sanders
I don’t know if I have a major struggle, my lower back’s killing me right now.

I know that’s kind of lame. So, um, Hey, but can me do some little deeper than that though? Seriously, it’s in, in our entree pastor’s thing, Les and I were about a year into this and, uh, we know we’ve got a good product. We know we’ve got a good message. We’re not seeing it take off as fast as I would like we’re seeing definite results, but, um, not to where I want.

So my, my struggle would just be the patience to stay with it, to keep planting seeds where I’m, I’m confident in faith that these are gonna, this will produce fruit. So I, I wanted to be a little more real there for our listeners. Uh, I know this isn’t rapid fire, but, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s my struggle. Oh, great.

47:48 Chris Grainger
It’s good. I

47:49 Les Hughes
totally get, this is if John, if God’s trying to teach you patience, man, I wish you’d go ahead and learn it quickly because I’m good to go. I mean, I’m on, that

47:59 Jon Sanders
might be the problem here. I’ll pray about that.

48:02 Les Hughes
Yeah. Fight.

48:05 Chris Grainger
So Les question for you, what are you most afraid of?

48:08 Les Hughes
I most afraid of come on Chris, what kind of questions man fighters, man, what am I most afraid of?

What am I most afraid? This is feeding time,

48:16 Chris Grainger
man. We’re into I’m

48:17 Les Hughes
wall. I mean, I’m putting bowls as a tiger. I don’t nobody, I don’t know many minutes that feel like they’re afraid of much. I would say, you know, this may not be where, what you’re thinking, but I, but I am afraid. I think probably that my life.

Will end without, um, without me making the kind of impact that I really wanna make for the kingdom. So there, if there’s anything that would be, that would be it, I suppose. Yeah. Okay.

48:46 Chris Grainger
So just a couple more questions. So what do you spend too much time doing last year? Social media

48:52 Jon Sanders
TikTok.

48:54 Chris Grainger
Hey man, we gotta get that stuff outta our, out of our lives.

It can suck us hand. Can it. I

48:59 Jon Sanders
learned a lot from it though. I am gonna say that I did learn a lot from to, so

49:03 Chris Grainger
here you go. what is, what is it? Hashtag TikTok taught me or something like that, right? Yeah. so, uh, Les, last question for you. What’s a new habit that you want to create this year. Oh

49:16 Les Hughes
man. Okay. Um, you know what?

I’ve got this, uh, I’ve got this desire to go to go kayak. And I I’ve been I’ve I’ve been before. It’s been, it’s been a while, but man, for some reason I wanna get out into the water and, uh, have some fun with friends. And uh, so that’s kind of what I’ve been thinking lately.

49:36 Chris Grainger
Well, I hope you can make that happen.

So the, the, the last question I have for both of you guys is, is what’s one thing. You got the listeners out here for the line within us. What’s one thing you hope they remember from our conversation.

49:49 Jon Sanders
Well, I’m just gonna give you a new thing. It’s courage. Like when I think of lions, that just the word courageous comes to my mind and we’re told in scripture to be courageous, to be strong and courageous.

So whatever that is for you on your journey, um, it’s a step that you need to take and there’s probably gonna be courage required and courage is not. The absence of fear. It doesn’t mean you’re not afraid. It, it means that you’re gonna look that fear in the face and take a step in into it regardless. So be strong, be courageous.

That’s good.

50:19 Les Hughes
Yeah. And I would say Chris, that, uh, wherever you are right now is a direct result of your thoughts and your actions. Certainly the Providence of God, but even that. It’s over thought thoughts and actions end up with results. And if you want to change the results, you have to change the way you think and, and what your habits are.

50:43 Chris Grainger
Amen to that. Well guys, where do you want the listeners to go? We’ll make sure we sync up everything in our show notes, but just give ’em. Where do you wanna point ’em to so they can connect with you, both of you and ire pastors and, and try

50:54 Jon Sanders
to support. Entree pastors.com. And if, if you’re thinking about starting something and not really sure where to start, we’ve got a gift we’d love to share with your listeners.

Chris, if they go to entree pastors.com/start, they can get our free, get started guided in addition to some self-assessment tools that has over 50 ideas for kind of some quick startup side hustle type things that they may not all be the right fit. There’s a really good chance. There’s something on there that is so entree, pastors.com/start.

51:27 Chris Grainger
Okay. We’ll make sure we sync that up in the show notes guys. Anything else you’d like to share on the line with the line within us

51:32 Les Hughes
today? No, man. Thanks for having us, Chris. We really enjoyed it and um, wish you all the best, man.

51:39 Jon Sanders
Yeah, we’re grateful. Thank you, Chris. Absolutely love what

51:42 Chris Grainger
you guys are doing.

Thank you so much for your time.

You wouldn’t jump in a boxing ring and expect to win without training. So why do you think you can win the battle? Get Satan without putting in the work for the Christian man, it starts with knowing scripture and your heart to help you out and get started with your training. We created a free guide of 10 scriptures.

You need to fight like a lion, go grab this free resource, and I’m gonna come alongside of you in a series of personal and engaging messages, designed to challenge and help you grow. So get equipped today with scripture, that will help you fight the battle you are. Visit the lion within.us to get started today.

That’s the line within.us to unlock this free guide. You need to fight like a lion.

That was a powerful conversation. I told you, I told you, John, unless those guys they’re great. They just have a great energy between the both of them, the way they bounce back and forth. They work very well together. I tell you, they, they told me about their, their program that they have to serve pastors to.

To help them grow. It’s phenomenal. I mean, it really is. At the end of the day, though, we have to remember guys, just, if you find a problem and you solve it, you can monetize, you can grow, you can grow your income, you can thrive. You know, they really talk deeply about the idea of thriving versus the scarcity mindset.

Guys. There was so much there, so go back and unpack it, you know, and, and we just need to remember, you know, that guys given us these talents for a reason, we have gifts. Let’s use them. Let’s glorify him. Let’s lean into what, what those talents are. And guys have some fun along the way. So the question of the week, this week, what gift do you have that you can start serving others and monetize the guys.

I know that I asked that one on our spiritual kickoff. I ask you again today as you’re driving, as you’re working as you’re, maybe you’re working out right now, wherever you’re at, maybe you’re on a treadmill. You’re thinking there’s a gift. You have a gift if you’ve made it this, this far into this podcast, you know, you have a gift and I wanna speak into you, the, the idea of success and, and capability you’ve been called, go out there, do the work act like they, those guys said get rid of that, that false mindset and then start acting, prove it out and thrive.

I want you to thrive. So guys, this was a great conversation. Thank you so much. I hope if this inspired you, I encourage you to go share this with others. Definitely go check out less John their podcast. If you know, if you know, maybe your pastor is struggling right now, or you think that, you know, there’s, there’s an opportunity for them.

The people at your church who actually work at a church, this could be a great episode to share with. Because at least we put them in, in connection with John and Les who may be able to help ’em. But if anything, maybe it sparks an idea. That’s what it’s all about. So guys, thank you so much. Leave a rating, write a review, please.

That makes a big difference. Go to the line with.us, check out our resources. We have the 10 scriptures to help you fight like a line. We have the non habits. We have the Bible study. We have the course guys it’s out there. It’s ready for you. We’re ready to. You wanna be part of the Bible study connect with us, join lion den.

That way you can be part of our email group and we can connect with you and figure out how we can serve you. It’s that, that part’s free. Guys. Maybe you wanna get you a hat or a shirt, whatever. Just go check out the website. There’s lots of resources there. Design to help serve you to help you grow. Thank you so much for listening to the show today.

I pray you come back on Friday. We have a fun, fun, Friday episode. It’s gonna be a lot of great stuff. Have some really good tips that I think gonna help you in your walk in your journey. So again, hope you have a great day guys. Get out there and unleash the lion within.