Chris Grainger
Host
00:03
Welcome to The Lion Within Us, a podcast serving Christian men who are hungry to be the leaders God intends you to be. I’m your host, Chris Granger. Let’s jump in. All right, guys, it’s your meat episode of the week. I’m excited to have you here, but you know how we’re going to start. We’re going to dig into God’s words. We’re in the book of Colossians. This week That’s Colossians, chapter one. Just looking at one verse, verse 27 says to whom God willed to make known that, what the wealth of the glory of this mystery among the Gentile is, the mystery that is Christ in you, the hope of glory. What a powerful verse, guys. Go back and check out the spiritual kickoff. We unpack that for you all. Hopefully now you can take that and you can simplify and apply it and you can walk that out. So today we’re going to be talking a lot about forgiveness And I know this is a topic that some, for some guys you may just like skip. I don’t even want to talk about it. I’m just telling you there’s a lot to learn here around forgiveness. I’m a broader than an expert, guys. You know we’re going to always bring you the top resources out there to help you grow to be the leader of God and tend you to be. So we brought in Dr Bruce Hebel. So he and his wife, Tony they are the co-authors of forgiving forward, unleashing the forgiveness revolution. So I love, first of all, I love that title. Anytime I can talk about something unleashing right, That’s fun for the line within us. But basically what they do right here is they try to teach people the process of forgiveness and coach them through that. So they wrote this book. They have a ministry, they work. They’re based out of Fayetteville, Georgia. They have this again, forgiving forward series, a study guide. They have regenerate your marriage series. They have all sorts of resources out there to help you guys grow and work on that art of forgiveness. Okay, So they’ve led hundreds, if not thousands, of people through this process, through this seminars that they teach And, again, this coaching that they offer is pretty incredible, guys. So go check that out.
01:57
But we spent a lot of time, Dr Bruce and I, just talking about the core message of forgiveness From a Christian standpoint. Where does that start And how should we start leaning into that? He unpacks a lot of things here, As you guys are going to have to really kind of follow along with them. Dr Bruce, he’s definitely you can tell he has spent some time in the pulpit. He gets on a roll. I just and I let him roll. I wanted him to be able to have the floor because ultimately, guys, it’s not about me, It’s about serving you all.
02:25
I thought Dr Bruce did a phenomenal job of that. So grab some notes to take some notes with, for sure, And if you’re struggling with forgiveness, I highly encourage you to check out his resources and then reach out to us too, at the line within us. We’re here to serve you. I’ve been able to talk with a lot of guys around just the mindset of forgiveness and what does that look like in a Christian man’s life and love to help you guys with that. So hopefully you enjoyed this conversation with Dr Bruce Hebel. So, Dr Bruce, welcome to The Lion Within Us. How are you doing today, sir?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
03:02
I’m doing great, Chris. It’s a pleasure to be with you guys.
Chris Grainger
Host
03:06
Oh, it’s a pleasure to have you here. I’m really looking forward to this time with you, And I’m curious. I always like to find out before you dive into the meat of the topic we’re going to be talking about. What’s something fun about you, Bruce, that you like to share with others that’s maybe not everyone knows about you or your personality.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
03:24
Well, i got a weird sense of humor part of that. That’s it, and it gets me in trouble sometimes, but I guess I’m a huge avid University of Kentucky basketball fan, so I just do crazy stuff to try to watch the game. I was actually teaching this in teaching our message in Romania in 2014, when they were in the Final Four and the championship game, and so I’m up at 4 am in the morning, having taught Friday, saturday, all day long. So it’s Sunday morning at four o’clock, which is the game plays there. It’s eight o’clock here And I got three churches I’m speaking at that day and I’m still up watching the game. So I’m a little bit. I’m a little bit. I might need some help on that, i don’t know.
Chris Grainger
Host
04:07
Hey, well, i mean at least you’re passionate about it. So what makes you so passionate about Kentucky basketball? I just I mean.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
04:13
I was. I was born in Texas but I was raised in Kentucky, and if you live in Kentucky you’re a Kentucky basketball fan, unless you live in Louisville. And then some of those are are are Kentucky fans too. So it’s just, you know, it’s it’s kind of a religion in the state.
Chris Grainger
Host
04:28
So yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s blue, it’s my hobby, it’s what I mean.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
04:33
It’s just keeps me. Yeah, marsh madness is fun, so this year not so much fun.
Chris Grainger
Host
04:39
Yeah, Yeah, That’s right, It is fun, Absolutely Well. Thank you for sharing that. I’m happy to to meet with you and to be able to unpack this message today, because I read your book, and one area that I know so many Christian men struggle with, including me is is the idea of forgiveness. I’m just maybe high level overview Give us going now of what forgiving forward is is just all about.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
05:02
Well, our heart and our passions is to help people experience the freedom of the gospel through the power of forgiveness, And so what we exist to do is to teach people how to forgive and how to help other people forgive, because most people who need to forgive need help. And we have discovered through our own experience and hard, tough lessons that there’s a severe consequence when we don’t forgive, And it in the only way we get free of that consequence is because is when we choose to forgive. There’s a whole lot behind that will impact as we go on. But that’s kind of the overview. When people don’t forgive, they are, they’re tormented, and the tormented only only the torment only leaves when we choose to forgive.
Chris Grainger
Host
05:46
Amen to that. I mean, I know early in your book, when I was reading, it was talking about bitterness and I’d man, it just resonated with me. I was like, oh man, this is a, this is a good one, Cause you actually says bitterness is like drinking a poison hoping someone else dies. I was like, man, that’s that, right there. Yeah, never heard of that. It really is.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
06:05
And I mean I, i I got that quote from RT Kindle and I don’t know who he got it from, but the it it really is. It’s like, you know, taking fire into your lap, but I but we have found that forgiveness is the medicine we administer to someone else that gives us life. So unforgiveness destroys us, forgiveness frees us. It’s that simple, yeah, yeah, although there’s a lot to it, but it’s very simple.
Chris Grainger
Host
06:34
Oh for sure. I mean, maybe pull up that bitterness a little bit more, particularly for the guys, cause I know there’s a lot of guys that I talked to, even part of our line, within this community. You know they deal with this bitterness. Bitterness is something that we all struggle with. So I mean what you know, why do you think so many of us, particularly men, you know, battled this, this, this, this, i guess, spirit of the of of the internet that’s out there?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
06:57
Well, i think there’s a lot, there’s a lot behind that And specifically answer the question. Then there’s a better, a bigger answer to the question. But but we get wounded. Somebody does something to us and we think they need to pay And we believe that someone has done something that is that is lessened us, it has hurt us, it has devalued us. There’s, there’s there’s some debt, some a wound, that that lessens us, and so we get bitter and so we begin to focus on that and focus on that and focus on that. And so there’s there’s part of it is us just looking and focusing the wrong direction.
07:39
But I think it’s deeper than that. I think when we don’t forgive, there actually is a demonic force that’s tormenting us and we’re a track. We’re attributing it to the wound. We’re not attributing to our unforgiveness. Now I just made a big statement that is kind of further on in the in the setup. But it’s a big deal when we don’t forgive And but. But bitterness says they owe me something and they haven’t paid it. They, they did something and they need to pay and they’re not paying. And I’m upset with that. Right, but true forgiveness says that that’s already been paid. That’s where we have to get it, get to.
Chris Grainger
Host
08:27
Right, and I mean that’s that’s the hard area for a lot of guys to get to, for sure, and, and I think that’s for me, that’s the area that I struggle with, you know, where it’s just that true forgiveness, like I may say it. I, yeah, i forgive you, but I don’t really. You know, i’m gonna remember, you know, remember that, i think, and just being real here, i think that’s where a lot of guys probably struggle with, like we’ll say the words, but it’s a difference than actually, you know, walking it out.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
08:52
We salute it, but we don’t do it. We salute it but we don’t do it. And there’s no Christian leader or follower of Christ who will tell you that it’s, that forgiveness is a bad idea. But the enemy will get us to, to get it so muddy and so diluted that we don’t actually do it, even though we say we do. And if we don’t, then the torment continues, the bitterness continues, and it’s okay.
09:18
Let me unpack what I mean by torment. Why I say that so strongly? Yes, sir, and just just our background. I was pastor’s son. I got saw my dad get wounded. I go into ministry. I get wounded a lot And there’s about a year in my ministry I mean, horrific things happened to us and our family.
09:36
One of our children was molested by a church member. I had to be the pastor and the father at the same time. We were put out without reason, without cause, nothing legitimate, no actual actionable thing happened. But we just don’t want you here anymore, you don’t fit anymore. We want somebody else, whatever. And we, we get wounded deeply.
09:58
And so I’m walking through this year of torment what I would only call torment because a scab from an old wound got knocked off by a current event And when. When that happens, we get oftentimes confused that it’s a current event or the old event. Which is it? but we’re just a mess And I’m a year. I’m just a mess. And finally, through a good counselor who’s become a dear friend and a lay cast that someone loaned to me and a retreat just me and God. God confronted me on my unforgiveness and I learned to forgive And I chose to forgive And then I helped my wife forgive. Then we helped our kids forgive, completely changed our entire family And then I helped my dad forgive And I’ve started this process of seeing people, when they choose to forgive, get free. So I did some research and did some deep study of what forgiveness actually means in the Bible And I started seeing some things, part of it through my own study. I think Bruce Wilkinson helped me see one key part of it. But there’s still this whole development What is forgiveness in scripture actually referred to for us? And I noticed something in the Lord’s Prayer that was that I’d read thousands of times, i’d quoted thousands of times.
11:11
It’s like everybody knows the Lord’s Prayer. If you’re in America, you know the Lord’s Prayer. It’s like most people know the Lord’s Prayer. The Catholics call it the Our Fathers right. It’s this model prayer Jesus gives us to pray, And the one condition in the model prayer is about forgiveness.
11:33
And it’s not the condition we would expect, because if I was predicting Jesus giving us a conditional prayer about forgiveness in His model prayer, it would be something like this God, help me, forgive others the way you have forgiven me. But it’s exactly the opposite of that, because Jesus says we’re to pray essentially this Heavenly Father, please use the standard that I use in dealing with the people who wound me as a standard you use to relate to me. Well, do we really want God using anything we do as His standard, particularly how we deal with wounds? But that’s what Jesus tells us to pray. That’s the only clause in the Lord’s Prayer He gives immediate commentary to And He says if you forgive men their trespasses, your Father will forgive you. If you don’t, he won’t. Now we’re not talking about internal security, chris, that’s a whole different question. But what He is saying is this the way we deal with the people who wound us is how God will relate to us while we’re walking around on the planet. And that should be unsettling to us. And multiple times He says it throughout the Gospels, but the most shocking statement He ever makes to me in all the scriptures in Matthew 18,. It has to do with forgiveness. And this is kind of an aha moment or a oh moment. You know, this is oh my, really. When I saw this, this was I mean 30 years in ministry before I see this.
12:58
Peter asked Jesus a question how many times do I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Seven times enough. And Peter thought he was doing great because he knew the Pharisees of the day said someone sinned against you twice had to forgive three times if you want to be generous, but after that you don’t have to, probably shouldn’t. So when Peter was saying seven times, he was doubling the maximum of the Pharisees and adding one saying did I do good, jesus? Do I get a gold star? Do I get a pat on the back? And Jesus said how about 70 times seven? That’s 490 times. That’s an unlimited number when you think about it, isn’t it? Because if you get into the 460s and you’re still counting, you have probably not been forgiving. You’re not going to keep track that long, will you? And then Jesus said something significant.
13:50
Whenever in the gospels Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like you want to pay attention because he’s giving us a glimpse as to how God wants things to work. And he says the kingdom of heaven is like. And he gives us a story, a parable of a natural account to teach a supernatural truth. And here’s the story. There was a ruler who came to collect debts from some servants who owed him money. Now, there weren’t online. One was not I mean one’s under the authority of the other, they weren’t equal. And he came to the first servant and he said you, who owed him 10,000 talents. He says pay me what you owe me. And he goes I don’t have. And the ruler said I’m going to throw you and your family into debtors prison. And the guy goes please, please, please, give me time. I’ll pay it back Now. He didn’t ask for forgiveness, he asked for time. I’m going to work this out. But the ruler gave him more than he asked for. He forgave him to death.
14:46
Well, it’s a great story, but most people I know I didn’t for many years, until I did the research You really don’t know what a talent was worth. A talent in that day was a amount of money that was equivalent to 60 minas, and a minas was worth three months’ wages. So one town is 180 months’ wages, or 15 years’ wages for one town. This guy owe 10,000 of them. That’s 150,000 years’ worth of wages. Please, please, please, give me time, chris. Do you have a 150,000 year mortgage on your house? Does anybody in the audience have one? Nobody has one of those At 50,000 a year, which is a median income in the US. That’s $7.5 billion with a B that the ruler forgave, which means the ruler’s net worth came down by that much and the net worth of the servant came up by that much. And I’m thinking if I’m the servant, i’m throwing a party, i’m in a good mood, we’re celebrating. This guy didn’t do that.
15:51
He goes and finds another servant, not someone under his authority, someone on a line with him under the same ruler’s authority. He owed him 100 days’ wages. That’s 16 grand. That’s a manageable debt. He says pay me what you owe me. Same appeal Please, please, please, give me time. I’ll pay it back.
16:10
And the first servant choked the second one and threw him in prison. And the ruler heard about it because, face it, fellow servants will always rat on you. They kind of always. They’re going to tell on you. And they were distressed by this right. It says they were grieved and they told the ruler what happened.
16:33
And the ruler summoned the first servant and said you, wicked servant, i forgave you all of that debt because you asked for mercy. Should you not have also had mercy on your fellow slave the same way? I had mercy on you, and I think that’s a legitimate question. And then it says and his Lord, little El, moved with anger, rightfully so handed him over to the torturers until he should repay what he owed. Well, what did he owe? At this point in the story Boy, he didn’t owe the money, because if you’re forgiven that, you legally can’t reclaim that debt, right. But he owed something. What is it he owed? Should you not have also had mercy? in the same way, i had mercy on you. He owed mercy to the next guy, or what we call forgiving forward, and the torturer in that day was a man who was assigned to the jail, who was skilled at exacting the greatest amount of pain for the longest amount of time without someone passing out or dying. Thank you, braveheart.
17:31
The guy at the end of the movie I’m pretty sure all the guys out there have seen that guy at the very far. All right, that’s what we’re talking about Waterboarding. We all have seen movies. If you ever watched 24, every episode had somebody being tortured. We know what it looks like.
17:46
Jesus now leaves the parable, which is significant. Why? Because he’s no longer telling a pretend story. He’s now addressing Peter’s question. He says my heavenly father will do the same to you if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart. Well, the same What My heavenly father will do, the same What. It doesn’t mean anything but hand you over to the torturers.
18:17
That word torturer is used 18 times in the Greek New Testament and of the other 17 times. Every other time, with maybe one exception, it’s using connection with hell or demonic activity. Do you remember the story of the rich man, of Lazarus? Lazarus was the beggar. Rich man wouldn’t help him. They both died the same day. Lazarus woke up in heaven, in Abraham’s bosom, which is a place of comfort. The rich man woke up in hell, using the same word, being in torment.
18:45
God withholds his protection from us. When we don’t forgive, he gives legal. This is hard to understand This was shocking to me when I saw this but he gives legal authority for demonic forces to torment us. When we don’t forgive, it’s not because we’ve been wounded, it’s because we haven’t forgiven the wound. It looks like bitterness, looks like anxiety, it looks like depression, it looks like anger uncontrolled anger. All of the addictions alcohol addiction, drug addiction, sex addiction, control issues, some physical issues, chris. We’ve literally seen people physically healed by choosing to forgive. Now, not all physical issues are unforgiveness related, but if the forgiveness is related and the torment is expressed itself physically because of the unforgiveness, the moment someone forgives they get free.
19:42
One lady was on the hard transplant list. Her heart was at 20% capacity. Tony coached her to forgive. After it was done, she went back the next week to her checkup and they said your heart’s now at 90% capacity. We don’t know what happened. We’re taking you off the list. She says I know what happened, i forgave and God healed me Again. Torment is there not because something bad happened to us It doesn’t dismiss more than what happened to us but it’s there because we haven’t forgiven the bad thing that happened to us, because we’ve been forgiven a lot ourselves.
Chris Grainger
Host
20:25
One story We’re real quick, dr Bruce. Let’s take a quick break and we’ll come right back and get to your story. Are you enjoying the weekly spiritual kickoff? If so, we are now offering a way to participate in our live daily spiritual kickoffs that happen Monday through Friday in our community. This is your chance to chat with me directly and other members of our community, to dive into Scripture and to leave with practical ways to simplify and apply God’s word to your daily walk. And here’s the best part You get all of this for just $5 a month. So, for what most people pay for a breakfast meal, you can join us on this journey of spiritual growth and leadership, which will always lead you full.
21:12
Our community is dedicated to supporting each other and pushing forward in our faith. Come join me in the lion’s den and become the leader God intends you to be. Stand up now at the lionwithinus and let’s start this journey together. Remember, it’s only $5 a month for this amazing opportunity. So visit the lionwithinus so you don’t miss out. All right, dr Bruce, we’re back here. So you had a story.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
21:39
You just were talking about torment and you had something that you want to share, so go ahead, yeah we had so many stories we could tell you We have a 90% breakthrough rate in one session when we coach people or couples. It’s crazy what God did, because if the torment is a part of forgiveness and unforgiveness, then you forgive, you get free. One couple came to us. He’s actually an award-winning a Grammy, award-winning R&B musician And he came to Christ about three weeks before, had an encounter with God And after that encounter he confessed to his wife of 14 years. He didn’t know how many women he’d slept with. He would fly women to wherever he was all over the world And he had an 11-year-old son his wife knew nothing about And somehow, somehow he got hurt to come with him to us And I’m not even sure how you heard about us, but it was just a God thing, right. So I began coaching him And wounded people, wound people often in the way in which they’re wounded, and if you’ve been wounded you don’t deal with it.
22:47
You’ll oftentimes repeat that wounding. And so we begin to evaluate that his father had the same kind of lifestyle. And if a father is unfaithful, he not only wounds the wife, he wounds the children and then wounds the son. And if the son doesn’t deal with it, oftentimes he will repeat that sin. It’s just the way it seems to work. And so I began helping him forgive his father. And as I was coaching him to forgive his father, he said and my sister? I said what did your father do to your sister? Nothing is what my sister did to me. Well, let’s finish, dad. We forgave dad. Bless dad. Let’s go back to sis. What did your sister do? Well, from time I was six or seven to 11 or 12, she not only molested me, but she brought her friends over and they used me like a sex toy. And I said that kind of explains a lot of what you’ve been doing. And when he forgave his sister and then he forgave himself for following that behavior, everything in this man’s countenance shifted, everything changed. And when Tony coached the wife to forgive her husband and some other things in her life, they walked out arm in arm, reconciled, and they have since started two ministries in North Atlanta, one to men with sex addictions and one to couples in crisis, and they’re using Forgive Me Forward as their model. But what’s also interesting is, three weeks later we get a call, my wife gets a call from Japan and the guys producer said I don’t know what you did with, but I got a similar. Can we come? And they came from Japan to Atlanta. We coached them and they walked out free too.
24:24
If you choose to forgive, the torment ends. It’s the way it works. So the big question becomes why?
24:33
Why does God discipline unforgiveness as harshly And maybe I’m saying this is a discipline because I believe unforgiveness is the most harshly disciplines and we as believers can commit because nowhere else does he say I’m going to hand you over the tortures for it. So why does he reserve that simply for unforgiveness? Because forgiveness is at the core of the gospel. You can’t cut the gospel anywhere. It doesn’t bleed forgiveness.
25:00
In Luke 24, it says thus it is written that the Christ should suffer and rise again on the third day. This is the last conversation, if not one of the last, that Jesus has with his disciples before he ascends into heaven. He says thus it is written the Christ should suffer and rise again on the third day. So that and that’s a purpose clause. Why is that important? Because with a purpose clause, the main goal is not before the purpose clause, it’s after the purpose clause. What precedes a purpose clause is the means to the main goal. You do this in order for this to happen. So the death and resurrection of Jesus is a really, really big deal, but it’s not the main event. What’s the main event? So that repentance for forgiveness of sins be proclaimed in his name to all the nations.
25:45
Forgiveness is at the core of the gospel, because the gospel is simply this In the Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve sinned, not only did man lose a lot, but God lost something. We lost a relationship we were designed to have with God, and God lost a glory we were designed to give him. And God said I want my kids back and my glory back. But there’s a problem. There’s a sin debt. It’s more than 150,000 years worth of wages. There’s zero possibility they can ever make it right. So, jesus, is there something you’re willing to do about it? Sure, dad, i have more than enough rights as my count I can cover. It Comes to the planet lives 33 and a third years, perfectly Stretched out his arms. He said it is finished. He didn’t say it’s almost done. He said it is finished. He didn’t say I’ll cover the bill, you get the tip. He said it is finished. What was finished?
26:31
The payment for the sin debt of the world. First, sean 2.2, says he, jesus, is the satisfaction for our sins, but not for ours only, but also the sins of the whole world. What that means is this people don’t go to hell because they’ve not been forgiven. They go to hell because they’ve not repented to receive the benefit of the forgiveness, because every sin ever committed by anybody anywhere on the planet was covered by Jesus, paid for by Jesus on the cross. It’s finished. There’s nothing left to pay.
27:02
Three days later, when God, the Father, raised Jesus from the dead, the Father said I agree, i received this blood of my son as payment in full for the sins of the world against me. So when we say God may forgive but I won’t, we’re saying dear heavenly Father, i appreciate the fact that you placed such a high value on the blood of your son that you receive it as payment in full for the sins of the world against you. But what they did to me, what they did to the people I love, i need something more than that. The blood of your son is not enough to satisfy me. And what Father would easily handle the crowning achievement of his son being devalued by the ones he achieved it for? And we say it this way, the blood of Jesus covers all sin, including the ones that were me So. Long answer to a short question. Bitterness is the result of the tormentors whose God, the Father, has assigned to us to bring us to repentance for dishonoring the blood of Jesus by not forgiving.
Chris Grainger
Host
28:12
Yes, sir, absolutely. I love. also, when I was thinking about this, you actually call one of your chapters forgiving people. forgive people, because I always talk to guys a lot about hurt people, hurt people, right. That’s just the way it is, it’s just a human nature. And I’m curious, when you’ve worked with so many people around this concept of forgiveness, is it kind of one of the pillars we talk about? the lion all the time is health, you know, and I think about going to the gym and getting stronger, and you don’t just go to the gym and just get on a bench and start benching 250 pounds, right, you hurt yourself. So is that forgiveness muscle something that has to grow over time? How do you see that growing? What’s your experience with this?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
28:56
Forgiveness is an event, it’s not a process. Forgiveness is not a process, it’s a transaction. So you know it’s not a muscle, it’s a choice. Unforgiveness says the blood of Jesus is enough. Forgiveness says it was enough, and so it’s a transaction. In the same way, buying a house may feel like a process, but it’s not, it’s a transaction. A house is purchased in a closing attorney’s office. When you sign a paper and they use it and a check, and they sign paper and they give you the deed. Right, you give them the check, they give you the deed. That’s a transaction and the deal is done.
29:36
Now there was a process of getting to that point I get it and making the choice and all that. But and then there’s a process of, you know, moving into the house afterwards. But forgiveness is a choice And I guess to use a muscle is we just need to. We just need to choose ahead of time that we’re going to forgive because we believe the blood of Jesus paid for it. You know, forgiveness is applying the blood of Jesus as payment in full for every wound I ever have or will suffer. It’s a choice I make to honor the blood of Jesus and apply the blood of Jesus to what happened.
Chris Grainger
Host
30:13
Right.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
30:13
And so I may have to work hard at living, learn to live out what it looks like to love my wife. But I love my wife and I’m one with my wife. I don’t have to do anything, become one. I’m already one. That happened on December 28, 1979. That happened. So I have to sometimes learn to live out what that looks like in muscle memory And I have to remember that I forgave some time on some things. But it’s a choice And I think that’s a, that’s a fallacy, that’s out there. I’m going to work my way into forgiveness. I’m going to build it up. I’m going to, i’m going to progressively get there and eventually I will just over. But our experience is the moment someone chooses forgive, it is transactional and the the torment leads.
30:54
We had one guy. His wife called me. I was pastoring at the time. We were developing for giving forward and we hadn’t left the local church to do this yet And so I was still working through a lot of things in rewriting the book and all that So. But she calls me. She says he is in North Atlanta, he saw his dealer and he’s high on cocaine in a hotel.
31:19
What do I do? I said go home, just go home and I’ll take care of it. So I called him and I said man, what are you doing? He goes, i’m a pastor, i blew it. Yeah, i heard. So here’s what you’re going to do. We got to have a mutual friend that’s up there close to you. He’s going to wear what, what? what hotel are you in? You know what motel I think is what it was, and what room. All right, so in a few minutes, james is going to show up to your knock on your door. You’re going to open the door, you’re going to hand him your truck keys, then you’re going to close the door and you’re going to go to sleep, because there’s no sense talking to a guy who just shot up with cocaine, right. So, but in the morning he will. He can’t go get anything and he’ll be, he’ll be, he’ll be sober.
32:06
So we showed up at nine o’clock the next morning. There was three of us. We brought some Chick-fil-A biscuits, because he’s going to be hungry, and some coffee, because he’s going to need that too, and and so after we got him fed and I talked him through a lot of things and I coached him to forgive, and he had been wounded. He’d done some really bad things, but he had been wounded some very deep ways too. So we dealt with not only what his root wound was that was causing his behavior, but also his, his sins that he had committed. He had to forgive that. He got radically free. He got changed right. Then there, bam, he’s free of cocaine.
32:43
He had one relapse. about three weeks later He called me and I said you forgot, you forgave, right. Yeah, remember, we did this. Remember this is oh yeah, pastor, i bring nothing, since I mean, he was hardcore And what was interesting, that was 2009, 2010 era, and In COVID, he calls me and says Pastor, i can only bring two people to my graduation because of COVID, but besides, my wife and I’m graduating with my doctorate in ministry and counseling And I want you and Tony to be the two people to come, so it’s a choice.
Chris Grainger
Host
33:24
Yeah, that is powerful. That is so powerful. Hey guys, i want to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Are you ready to unlock your true potential?
33:35
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34:43
So so, bruce, i mean, I totally get it. It’s a choice. I’m just curious and walk through it with us a little bit more, because you’ve talked about learning to forgive, choosing to forgive and then teaching to forgive, and I know you spent a lot of time teaching this forgiving for process, but, thank you Probably got a lot of our listeners stirred up. Now They’re on the on the edge of their seats. Ok, give us a little bit, maybe. Maybe walk through a couple of those, those pillars, those protocols of forgiveness, if you would, of what that would look like, because we may have some guys listening right now who really need to lean into this idea of forgiveness, but it’s all you know. We throw a lot of scripture at them. We’ve talked about some stories, but hey, can we get practical to some?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
35:22
of the Yeah, that word a rubber meets the road.
35:25
Absolutely. What I talked earlier was this removes the option, doesn’t it Right? If you see I’m going to be in torment of I don’t forgive that man, i better forgive, i better learn how to do this Right, amen. This. This moves it from a option to a necessity, right, right. And so a couple of a few things before I go to the protocols.
35:45
Forgiveness doesn’t say what they did was OK, right. It doesn’t say it says it was wrong. I mean, we hear things and I’m horrified by what I hear And what they did was wrong, 100 percent, not OK. However, it was paid for. Forgiveness doesn’t say it was OK. It says it was wrong. But Jesus paid for it. In the same way he paid for my sin.
36:13
And forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. That’s a real confusion out there. For reconciliation requires two parties. You requires the one who’s been wounded to forgive and the one who’s done the wounding to repent. Now, repentance doesn’t mean change of behavior. It means change your mind. Right, it met to annoy you completely change your mind.
36:34
So what I did was wrong, what can I do to make it right? So just imagine a high top table with five chairs on it. You got the father, son, the spirit, already sitting there. It’s a father’s table. It’s a table of reconciliation. If I’ve been wounded, my ticket to the table is forgiveness. What they did was wrong, but Jesus paid for it. And I come to the table and then God, the person who did the wounding, says what I did was wrong. I used to think it was OK. Now I know it was not OK. I was wrong. What can I do to make it right? At which time this person already sitting at the table says thank you very much, but Jesus already paid for it.
37:12
So the other part of that, and there’s so much teaching. By the way, guys, you can go to forgivingforwardcom. There is a message on the page. You can see it. There’s also a course you can take. The book is there. There’s a pro the forgiveness guide, which are the protocols. You can download that for you. You can get that for free. So all that’s there. So I’m summarizing about a four hour teaching, a four session teaching, as we’re doing this today.
37:42
So, but reconciliation requires the person who’s been wounded to forgive this person, to repent, and he always calls the person who’s been wounded to the table first. Why? Because our forgiveness can’t be based upon what this person did, it has to be based on the cross of Jesus. The other reason if this person is not repentant and I don’t forgive, i’m in torment and I’m letting someone who’s thinking, by definition, thinking badly control whether or not I’m in torment. And there, chris, there’s a theological term for that. It’s a deep, technical, theological term. It’s stupid, all right, it’s just dumb. So don’t do that. You come to the table first So that we break that out in our, in our teaching. So it’s doesn’t say it’s okay, it was paid for, it’s not.
38:31
We don’t forgive people, we forgive wounds. It’s a big deal, for a lot of people get it wrong. I forgive my father for what existing. He’s created in the midst of God. We’re to honor all men. No, we forgive our dad for what he did. So the person, the wounds are associated with a person, but we forgive the person for the wounds. Jesus said Father, forgive them. They know not what they do. So I forgive my dad for never showing up at my ball games when he promised he would. I forgive my dad for cheating on my mom, for bailing on the family, for making me feel like I was not good enough for, for, for never being satisfied with my brother, whatever it is.
39:08
I forgive my mom for telling me that I would never measure up to anything. You’re just like your dad, whatever these days, whatever the feelings they brought out or whatever, you’re forgiving those specific things. All right, quick summary of a couple of sessions there. So how do you forgive? What are the protocols? Well, there’s we found seven of them, but there’s five that are part of the actually forgiveness piece. The other two how to deal with memories and how to deal with new wounds.
39:34
The first one is what we call it the protocol of gratitude. Thank God for forgiving you. We need to remember, chris, that in the Matthew 18 story, we’re the first servant, not the second one. We’re the ones who owns the insurmountable debt that God, whatever someone has done to us, pales in comparison to the sin we’ve done against God. We violate his holiness in ways that no one else could violate. Our holy is because we don’t have them without So it. Thank you, god, for forgiving me. That puts us, in the attitude of gratitude, in a position of humility. Thank you, god, for dying for me. Thank you for paying all for all my.
40:13
The second protocol is we repent of our sin of unforgiveness, because unforgiveness is not bad, it’s a sin. I hope your listeners have learned maybe for the first time, maybe it’s just a reiteration of some things they knew before but that our unforgiveness dishonors the very blood of Jesus that paid for our sin, and so we repent of that. God, i was wrong to not forgive and I didn’t realize that I was dishonoring your sacrifice for me. I was. I was dishonoring your blood And I do. And Hebrews 10 says we’re trampling underfoot the shed blood of Jesus, right? So we don’t want to do that. We’re wrong. Sorry, god, please forgive me. I was wrong to not forgive and dishonor your blood. That’s protocol number two.
40:59
Protocol number three is ask God, who do you need to forgive and for what? Here’s the, here’s the interesting thing We’ve coached thousands of people and couples Now over a thousand couples. We probably coached every single time it’s happened. It’s never, not been the case 100% of the time. The wound that’s causing the conflict, that’s causing the torment, rather that’s producing the conflict in the relationship, predate the couple ever meeting The issue in the marriage is an issue, but it’s not the issue. And until you deal with the root issue, this issue will always be an issue. But when you deal with this root issue, then you can deal with these things and you can be good. Because if I’ve got a wound from my mom and that she was dominant and she was dishonoring to my dad and she was dishonoring to me and didn’t give me respect and honor, and my wife says something crossed to me, whose voice am I going to hear?
Chris Grainger
Host
42:07
Yeah, mom.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
42:09
Yeah, so, or dad, i mean whatever. So we deal with those. Then those voices get silenced because it’s the tormentor using those voices and repeating those voices with like a voice impersonator and sounds like my mom, sounds like my dad, but it’s not. It’s the tormentor working. But the moment the tormentor leaves that we get free. So how do I know where the root wounds are? Well, you can dig all you want to, but you probably won’t find it. So how do we find it? We ask the Holy Spirit And Jesus said it’s his job to reveal these things to us. And there’s a news flash out there. He’s really good at his job. So just listen.
42:54
And then you forgive each offense from your heart, from my heart I choose to forgive, name the person for, and you list the offenses And just listen, just listen, and at some point in time you’ll need to pause and say, lord, is there anything else? And it’s interesting in those first moments, those quiet moments after those first people or wounds, we forgive and we kind of run out of the obvious and we get quiet. It’s in those moments that emotion starts well enough. It’s in those moments that the root starts being revealed and it’s those moments where freedom starts to happen. So we forgive until the Holy Spirit says you’re done. And then you say I declare this person is no longer in my debt and I transfer their debt to the cross where Jesus paid it all. And then you seal it. Number five is the sealant And this is where, if you cannot do this, you have not forgiven. Ask God to bless them and look for ways to bless them when possible. If you cannot bless someone, you have not forgiven them. It was kindness of God that leads us to repentance While we were still enemies. Christ gave us the. God gave us the greatest blessing of all the death of his son. And unforgiveness says they need to pay. The true forgiveness is I want them to be blessed because that’s how you treated me. So ask God to bless them. And oftentimes you ask him to bless them in a way in which they wounded you.
44:30
One of our close friend of ours came to me one time and said okay, bruce, i’m not going to. I want to forgive my son-in-law. But I think I have, but I’m not sure I have it. I have. I said why do you say that She goes well when he comes to the house? I don’t even want to be around him. I said that’s a pretty good clue. You’ve not forgiven him. What did he do?
44:51
Well, a few years ago he stole some money from us and he never admitted it. We know he did it and he’s not confessed it. He won’t, he just won’t. So I’m just. I said well, have you blessed him? She goes I don’t know.
45:08
I said well, why don’t you give him a gift? If you stole from you, give him a gift, bruce. You don’t understand. I don’t like him. I haven’t spent enough energy knowing him so I don’t even know what to give him. I don’t know what he likes. Then give him some money and just say he can’t use it for your daughter or grandkids or any of the household. He has to buy something specifically only for him. He says I know exactly how much. I’ll give him. How much 500 bucks. I said can I be your son-in-law? I said why 500 bucks? I said that sounds like a God plan. She did.
45:46
She went and apologized for withholding herself from him and said we’re grateful for what you do, how you are a great husband to our daughter, great father to our grandkids. We just want to bless you with this. You got to use it. He just went, thank you and walked off. No response, no, nothing. I said I’m looking for a Hallmark movie moment. Right, there’s going to be a great dad for the Pentons and all that. None of that. I said I’m so sorry She goes. No, no, it’s okay, bruce, it wasn’t about him, it was about me. Their whole relationship shifted. Those are the first five protocols. Attitude to graduate. Thank God for forgiving me. Repent of your sin of unforgiveness. God, who do I forgive and for what? What’s interesting, chris, is oftentimes when we’re coaching someone, when we ask that question, we say, okay, what’s the first after we pray the prayer, what’s the first name or face that comes to your mind? So oftentimes it’s not anybody we previously talked about.
Chris Grainger
Host
46:47
We’ll talk about it.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
46:47
Whatever you know, my mom, yeah, yeah, We didn’t talk about mom, have we? No? but mom is the one that’s the, where the root is and the Holy Spirit brings it up. Wow, that’s a fire hose. I just shot at you guys drinking from. So any questions?
Chris Grainger
Host
47:02
Well, i’m curious from a guy standpoint because I mean, most of our listeners are Christian men. Of course, i know there are a lot of ladies who listen to the show, so thank you, ladies for listening. Before the guys out there, those first five protocols. If there’s one that is the hardest, particularly for you as you’ve coached people, particularly men what would be the hardest one that guys struggle with?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
47:23
I think a lot of guys will struggle with the blessing part, and that’s because we’re trained to think they need to pay.
Chris Grainger
Host
47:33
Sure.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
47:36
And also, i think, one of the distortions about forgiveness out there, particularly any model of forgiveness that does not involve the cross Okay, any secular model And unfortunately a lot of Christian models are secular models and sacrificed by Christian words Right, there’s always the feeling that if I forgive you, then I’m letting you off the hook, but I’m absorbing it All. Right, there’s a debt, somebody’s got to cover this, somebody’s got to absorb this, right. And so it feels like it’s not fair. It just feels like this Okay, yeah, i’m not going to get out of it. Okay, i’ve forgiven, but I’m still $300,000 down on this deal.
48:26
I coached a guy, a businessman, who actually went and forgave a guy and he goes. It was just a small debt, it was like $300,000. I’m going you live in a different world than I live in. I get that, but he had to absorb it, right. So in the natural that’s the way it works, but in the supernatural it’s not that way.
48:45
We’re not saying I forgive you and I’m paying for it. I’m saying I forgive you because Jesus already paid for it. I’m realizing that Jesus is going to balance the book and whatever loss I seem to feel. I’ve already gained way more than that in the grace that God has poured into my life, and so I’m a net positive, no matter what anybody does to me, because I have Jesus, i have the grace of God flowing in my life, i have the peace of God And if I forgive, i don’t have torment. So when we get to that blessing, we’re going okay. Yeah, i can bless because God blessed me, and I can bless them because they don’t owe me anything, because they’re debts between them and God And I’ve been paid. That’s I think. I’m not sure if that’s exactly the question you asked, but that’s, i think, the biggest struggle, that one of the biggest struggles that we have.
Chris Grainger
Host
49:42
Amen, and just making a choice.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
49:44
I choose to do this. There’s one guy named Larry We’re. We’re ministering in Texas, in Dallas area, and we’re teaching a title on a Sunday morning And, because it was just a weird anomaly in the schedule, we had Sunday night off and we were teaching the rest of it on Monday. And so the couple that had introduced us to the church and we actually were staying with them, jim and Diane said we’re going to have our small group over. They’re the first ones who did the video curriculum at their church and they were the bridge that their group was, the bridge that got us into their church through the full seminar. And so he said we just want to spend time with you, we want our small group to get to know you, you get to know us. No agenda, no teaching, just barbecue, just grilling and and and size and all the stuff that people bring, and pot luck, pot sovereignty, whatever you want to call it, a covered dish dinner. We’re going to have a good time. That’s all we want. You have a day off, a night off, and just. We just want to get to know you Enjoy it. Awesome, I love that food, all the grill. I’m in about midday She, he comes and goes. Bruce, i’m so sorry.
50:52
Someone invited Larry and Larry and I said that’s okay. Why, why is that a problem? He goes. You don’t understand. Larry’s the most bitter man anybody has ever met. He sucks the life out of every room he walks into with his bitterness. It’s he just, and I wanted you to have the night off. I didn’t want you to have to coach him. I said, look, i’m good, god will lead this, whatever I’m not. I’m not pushing anything and my assignment tonight is to get to know your people. So that’s my push, all right, so don’t worry about it. We’re good, larry’s good.
51:23
So Larry shows up with his friend and Larry introduced, he get introduced to him and he goes and sits on the couch. He gets his food, then goes back and sits on the couch and he just stays on the couch in that place. Everybody else is moving around, we’re talking, all that stuff, and the night goes on and Larry sits on the couch and we’re we’re just meeting people and then people start filing out. It’s time for everybody to go home. Everybody’s gone And now it’s just Tony and I and Diane and Diane and Tony, the house lady and another lady, so the three of them over there talking about decorating stuff or whatever, and there’s Jim and me and Larry still sitting on the couch. So I go sit across from Larry. I said so, larry, tell me your story. And Jim told me later he’s thinking don’t do that, he’ll tell you. You don’t want, you don’t have the time. So here’s Larry’s story.
Chris Grainger
Host
52:06
Hey, dr Bruce, let’s take our last break and then we’ll get right into Larry’s story. So we’ll be right back. Guys, we have a resource that allows you to test how strong of a Christian leader you are. We designed a short quiz so you can see for yourself how prepared you are for the battle. Don’t worry, it’s multiple choice and it’s a lot of fun. So to access this free resource, visit thelinewithinus slash quiz And see if you are ready to unleash the lion within All right. So, dr Bruce, you’re getting ready to share Larry’s story, so let’s go.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
52:50
All right. 10 years prior to us sitting in that living room, his wife had been seduced. They were attending a large church in the mid cities area of Dallas, fort Worth, and the pastor had not only seduced his wife but also his underage daughter And he was guilty of doing that with other women and other teenage girls. In fact, to my knowledge, he’s still serving time in Huntsville prison for what he did with the underage girls. And Larry said I was on my way to kill him and God literally stopped me and I’ll never forgive him. In fact he cost me my marriage. The shame of my wife couldn’t handle it and I lost my marriage. And I said that’s terrible, larry, i can’t believe someone in my position would do something like that. That’s horrific And there’s no excuse for that. He said. But there’s more Okay.
53:38
About a year before this conversation his son, who was a Marine in the Iraq war, had been decommissioned and come home with PTSD, was really struggling, was supposed to have, but he had. At one point he had a negative encounter with a lieutenant with the police department And he came across that, probably because of his PTSD, that there was corruption in the Dallas police force. He became a nuisance to the entire Dallas police department trying to expose all this stuff, and particularly that one lieutenant. But he’s supposed to be at a Bible study. He calls his buddy at the Bible study and says I just shot myself. He’s in his apartment in his bathroom and he’s a Marine. He shot himself here. That’s not a suicide attempt, that’s a cry for help, because a Marine would know where to kill him, where to shoot him. This he knows he’s not going to. The buddy hangs up, calls 911, 911, dispatches two uniform police officers and this lieutenant, who’s off duty, recognizes the address and says I’m nearby, i’ll respond. And the lieutenant and the two officers walked in, found this young man bleeding on his own bathroom floor and they shot him six more times and killed him. And one did not participate, but he didn’t say anything afterwards And they investigated it and they know build it. No, no charge to officers.
55:12
And Larry said I’ll never forgive them. Well, i shared with him the Matthew 18 story I talked earlier And he goes, i’m still not going to forgive. And I said well, larry, are you enjoying your torment? I said how’s the torment working out for you? I said because you don’t have to forgive. But why would you not want to? Why would you want to stay in torment? And I pointed at the bedroom, to that bedroom door. That’s where I’m going to sleep tonight. I’m going to sleep good, because I always sleep well. You haven’t slept well in 10 years, have you? No? Why would you want another sleepless night? And he goes. And he finally made the decision and I coached him to forgive the pastor and his wife, the police officers and the police department And everything in his house has shifted. Everything changed. Everything changed with Larry.
56:02
Jim shared later. He said I’ve never seen anything. I’ve never seen that kind of a change in someone’s appearance. The next night he shows up at the training and talks to Tony and I’m talking to somebody else. Whatever Tony slips up to me, you need to have Larry tell his story. So I had Larry at the end share his story.
56:20
And Larry looked at the pastor, the church, and said before I say anything is, i want to apologize to you for holding you accountable for what somebody else in your position did previously And it wasn’t your fault and I was wrong and I’m on your team. Whatever you need, i’m with you. And he went around the room to the other pastor, said the same thing And he said today I went to a 7-Eleven. He’s a contractor And he goes. There was a police cruiser there And normally I would have just gone to another 7-Eleven, which, chris, is not a big deal in Dallas If you’ve ever been to Dallas. They’re every 87 feet, they’re everywhere at the 7-Eleven right, and he goes. I didn’t. I walked up and I said to the two officers officers, i want to apologize for you if you’re holding you accountable for what someone in your uniform did And I want to thank you for the service that you provide to our city. And, if it’s okay with you, i want to buy you some coffee. And now his whole passion is to support and encourage police officers.
57:18
So see, when we chose to don’t choose to forgive. There’s torment And if you don’t like torment, if you don’t like your addiction, you don’t like your anger issues, you don’t like your bitterness, if you don’t like what is doing inside of you, the simple solution is to choose to forgive it. Because the moment you forgive, the tormentors leave. It’s 100% of the time. In the same way that the moment someone puts their faith in Jesus, they move from life, from death, to life, the moment you forgive, you move from torment to freedom. It’s the way it works.
Chris Grainger
Host
57:48
Man, this is powerful stuff, dr Bruce. I mean you give us so much insight here around forgiveness, torment, the protocols. Guys be sure to check out the show notes. But before we let you go I want to do a lightning round with you, dr Bruce. We call it our feeding time, so you willing to play a little game with us before we go?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
58:06
Let’s do it.
Chris Grainger
Host
58:07
All right, this is lightning round. Quick fire back at me as fast as you can. So what’s a hobby that you have, dr Bruce?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
58:16
Wow, spending time with my wife. Actually, that’s my biggest number one hobby. That’s what I do. I just like, when we don’t do anything, let’s just go do something. Baby, let’s just spend time with her. Okay, kind of weird for people, but that’s what I do. I love it.
Chris Grainger
Host
58:31
All right, what’s your favorite?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
58:33
Be honest, I just jump in here. What we do in ministry I wake up everyone, really, God, we’re the ones you let do this. This is one of the most fulfilling, energizing things that you could ever do. I just love doing what we get to do.
Chris Grainger
Host
58:45
Amen Amen.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
58:48
Maybe not the best answer, because everybody’s supposed to have a hobby, but that’s the way it is.
Chris Grainger
Host
58:53
That’s okay. That’s okay. This is your lightning round. We’re not worried about the rest of them. So there you go. We’ll forgive them. How about that All?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
59:00
right And they can forgive me. All right, i’ll help them There you go.
Chris Grainger
Host
59:05
So what’s your?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
59:06
favorite food, It’s going to be meat either a good brisket or a good steak. All right, okay, it’s got to be the Texas brisket, smoked brisket off my green egg. Yep, that’s what I do.
Chris Grainger
Host
59:23
There you go.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
59:25
What’s your?
Chris Grainger
Host
59:25
all time favorite movie, wow.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
59:31
Let’s shift that to. My favorite production is Les Mis. I love.
Chris Grainger
Host
59:38
Les.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
59:38
Mis And there is a movie about that And it’s a fair movie So I get. But you know, but the whole story of Les Mis is Grace and Law and the way it works, so that’s my favorite. But there’s so many movies out there. I love old Westerns. Sometimes I’ll just the afternoon just go grab a John Wayne movie somewhere. But also, like you know, the adventure of the Star Wars and all that kind of stuff. Star Wars but the Marvel stuff and all that.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:00:04
There you go, there you go. Well, what’s when you think about God? what’s your favorite movie, god? what’s your favorite thing?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:00:08
about him. Favorite thing about God is that he is so much bigger than we can imagine, but he stays intimate with us. He wants to be intimate with us in all of his grand or in all the expressions of his attributes and all of his self sufficiency and all of his not needing of anyone or anything. He is sufficient all in of himself, with no need, once an intimate relationship with me.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:00:54
Amen, and he lets make it happen, absolutely. So let’s flip that now 180. So what’s the least favorite thing about Satan?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:01:09
I don’t like anything about that boy. I don’t like anything. He’s just a mean, sadistic dude. So yeah, but to hear the cool part about Satan God never fights him. God has never had a fight with Satan. God doesn’t fight Satan, he uses him, right. So my favorite thing about Satan is that he doesn’t know how much God uses him. And God keeps using him in my life.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:01:35
So yeah, There you go. So when you think about the last year, Dr Bruce, what is something that you spent too much time doing?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:01:45
Oh, probably on a screen, either TV or iPad. Yeah, probably screen time.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:01:54
Okay, so what’s a new habit you want to create? Or maybe something that you’ve recently started?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:02:04
I think I need to get better at devoting time to writing, to breaking away and doing focused writing time. I want to probably set a better schedule for making that happen. There’s a lot of writing I need to do that I get just way too distracted with, so I think I’ve got to get more disciplined in that. I’m not sure about seeing more questions.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:02:30
It takes diligence. Writing is definitely a discipline, for sure. So last question for you, Dr Bruce what do you hope that the guys remember most from our conversation today?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:02:42
That the blood of Jesus covers all sin, including the ones that wounded us, and that your freedom is at the end of forgiveness. Our passion is to help people experience a freedom of the gospel through the power of forgiveness. And if you don’t forgive, it’s not because of the guy who wounded you, because you haven’t forgiven it. And so just embrace the cross. I think that’s the one thing about our message that sets us apart from many others is everything is about the cross. So just focus, just elevate the cross. When you elevate the cross, everything fails, falls in line. It just does. And so take to the cross, forgive it, walk in freedom and live unoffendably. Maybe that’s that’s one thing we didn’t talk about. But protocol number seven is make pre forgiveness a lifestyle. Say everything that ever happens to me has already been paid for, so I’m going to walk in freedom.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:03:33
Absolutely love it, love it. So where do you want them to go, dr Bruce, we’ll make sure we sink in everything and show those, but why don’t you tell them one more time where to go to connect with you, with your wife, tony, and all the resources you have in forgiving forward?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:03:45
Well, forgivingforwardcom, and there we have a brand new. We just created it and released it last September. We had an old one. It replaced it A video curriculum. It teaches a core message. Of it. It’s the production is out off the chain, but the message is really strong. It’s what we teach, and so it’s it’s geared for small groups, for families, couples, any individuals, and then you can access that online or you can actually order the hard copy.
01:04:10
Some people still actually have a DVD player. If you want one of those, we got that And we have the books and that kind of material on there. And if you need coaching, if you feel like, man, i need somebody to help me, because most people do, particularly in the initial stages give us a call. We coach or training coaches. We’re working through that. In fact, if somebody gets this and wants to learn to be a coach, there’s a procedure for that happening, so you can help other people find freedom through forgiveness. So, forgivingforwardcom, the also I’ll just throw this into on the Bible app, we have a seven day devotional called the freedom of the gospel.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:04:49
So if you want to go through that with a group, we’ll make sure we think that stuff up in the show notes for you guys. So, dr Brutes, has been a blast Having you go on. Anything else you’d like to share today?
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:04:59
Just honored to be here. And guys, just focus on the cross, focus on Jesus. He’s already paid for your stuff. Forgive yourself, forgive others and walk in freedom.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:05:10
Amen, sir. Well, you have a wonderful day. Thank you so much.
Dr. Bruce Hebel
Guest
01:05:14
My blessing, chris, thanks for having me on.
Chris Grainger
Host
01:05:19
Listen, guys, our habits matter. They’re either making you better or they’re holding you back. So if you’re feeling stuck and you need some ideas on how to create some new habits that are going to make an impact, i want to help you out. So I outlined a guide that will give you nine habits That’s nine that will help you grow spiritually, mentally and physically. To get your free guide head over to the lionwithinus slash habits That’s the lionwithinus slash habits and start creating the habits you need to be the leader God intends you to be. All right, guys, so hopefully you enjoyed that one. It was fun, for sure.
01:06:00
I really liked how much we talked about torment, because I hadn’t really thought about the torment. But really, when you’re holding on to that bitterness and you’re not choosing forgiveness, you’re really just creating torment for yourself. And some of those stories I mean that story that he talked about with Larry how impassable was that? right? I mean and I get it Church hurt. A lot of you guys probably went through this whole thing and we didn’t even talk about it. But I know church hurt is real. Some of you guys have been hurt by churches. Maybe you’re done. You’re like you know what I’m done with church. I’m done with this whole, you know, organized religion thing. And look, i totally get it. Sometimes the church hurt exists and that is real. I’m sorry you have gone through that. Lean on forgiveness. Don’t let that torment tear you down. I’m so glad you’re here to lie And I mean we’re here to serve you, but again, we’re not the church. We’re a very good supplement to help you grow. We’re not your local church guys, so really think about that. So maybe this was something that you struggled with and that you feel like this could help you. I encourage you to share this one out with others, okay, because there’s other guys that may be dealing with the same thing that you’re dealing with around forgiveness Don’t know really where to start. So this is a really good place to start to get the information that you need to start moving forward.
01:07:14
So the question I had for you this week how do you know when you’ve truly forgiven others, like that true forgiveness of others? How do you know that? And Dr Bruce and I we talked about it some, but this is a personal thing. I always bring it back to you, to us guys, us and our spirit. What is the Holy Spirit revealing to us. Guys, i pray. I pray that you’ve learned some things through this episode today that helps you lean into that forgiveness and start practicing that more and more. Okay, because again, i know he says it was. It was, it was. It’s a point in time, it’s sometimes a choice, but I still believe the more you work that muscle out, the stronger it’s going to get. So the more you forgive, the easier it’s going to be to forgive and it’s going to be part, become part of your. It’s your daily walk in your process. All right, guys. So thank you so much.
01:08:01
Give us a rating and review. If you want mine. Definitely head over to the line within that us. We have some merchandise available, guys. We have some merchandise available. Love for you to check that out. Go to our store or resources there. Love for you to see what we have going.
01:08:14
And if you haven’t joined the community yet, guys, you have to get in. It’s the line with themus starts your 30 day free trial. If you’re struggling with some areas of forgiveness, guys, we’re getting into the community. Let’s talk about it, get these things out on the table and let’s figure out how the line within us community the iron, sharpening iron can help you walk through that process of forgiveness directly. Okay, so again, that’s free 30 day trial. That’s where you’ll find all our resources right there on the line within that us. Jump on there and get started. There’s no excuses. We give you a month for free, so just come check it out, come hang out with me, come hang out with a lot of our members and let’s have some fun growing to be the leader God and tells us to be.
01:08:52
I hope you come back on Friday. Got some good tips for you on Friday. Hopefully you’ll enjoy those And, as always, we got our dad jokes and the fun stuff we do on our fun Friday episodes. So we’ll see you here, guys, in a few days, good Lord willing. So again, get after it. Thanks to that, the idea of forgiveness Who do you need to start extending this, extending forgiveness to? and then don’t just be, you know, a sideline Christian here. Take some action. Take some action. Extend that forgiveness or lease that torment and find that piece, that piece that passes all understanding. All right, guys, we’ll see you next time. The leash the lion with them.